Can a zero scandi edge handle batonning?

Bladenoobie1

Bladenoobie1

Joined
Jul 20, 2012
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I was curious to those who use scandi bushcraft knives, how its edge handles batonning. I realise there are other grinds such as convex, but for the sake of this discussion I'm only asking about scandi grinds.

Do you put a secondary edge on the grind? If so, tell me why, if not, please tell me why as well.

- BN
 
Theoretically the edge will only contact the material until you get to the shoulder of the grind. Then the thickness of the shoulder will split the material without the edge doing anything.
 
Just don't baton, that what axes are for.

Small sticks I can see but a 3-4in log is uncalled for. Batoning is a internet invention, those that don't frequent the interwebs look at you all confused and with a puzzled face when you mention such foolishness.
 
knifenut1013 said:
Just don't baton, that what axes are for.

Small sticks I can see but a 3-4in log is uncalled for. Batoning is a internet invention, those that don't frequent the interwebs look at you all confused and with a puzzled face when you mention such foolishness.
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:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

That +10.
 
I have never understood why one would use a screwdriver handle as a hammer when they had a hammer in their tool pouch all along. Do you really go out to chop heavy wood with only a knife with you? I could see it used in a true emergency if lost or stranded somehow unexpectedly. Just my views, which are limited by my experience in the outdoors for only 60 plus years.

Blessings,

Omar
 
Batonning with smaller thinner knives like that is all about technique. As long as the blade is going straight and doesn't hit a knot, you should be fin. I've seen a guy hammer a Mora into the side of a tree and use a baton to push-cut it all the way around the outside the tree without even laying a hand on the knife. All it took was a few good whacks with a stick and he'd cut down a 4-5 inch diameter tree.
 
knifenut1013 said:
Just don't baton, that what axes are for.

Small sticks I can see but a 3-4in log is uncalled for. Batoning is a internet invention, those that don't frequent the interwebs look at you all confused and with a puzzled face when you mention such foolishness.
Click to expand...

A certain tool named "froe" would like to disagree with you. I consider batoning a really useful technique if all you have is a knife.
Or in a survival situation, where you are tired, dehydrated, cold its much more dangerous to use an axe to split wood.

To stay on topic: I'd put a slight microbevel on the edge, just to be on the safe side.
 
C_Becker said:
A certain tool named "froe" would like to disagree with you. I consider batoning a really useful technique if all you have is a knife.
Or in a survival situation, where you are tired, dehydrated, cold its much more dangerous to use an axe to split wood.

To stay on topic: I'd put a slight microbevel on the edge, just to be on the safe side.
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A froe or shake axe is also much different from a modern knife.

Batoning a very hard piece of metal is simply a good way to break it. I never knew of batoning until I joined the forms and never broke more knives until I tried it.
 
I appreciate the responses. I too, discovered batoning when I joined the forums, but then again I was never really into knives as much until I joined this forum.

Though batonning on a scandi grind is not always advisable, people often do it anyways and alleviate chipping problems with a microbevel. I understand a 4 inch scandi grind blade isn't the proper tool to split larger pieces of wood, but if I were to slightly convex the scandi grind through freehand sharpening (From what I've read and experienced, the slight inconsistencies in body movement results in a slightly convex edge?) and stropping would the edge be strong enough to handle light batonning, as in splitting smaller pieces of wood following the grain?
 
I maintain that I began batoning far before any interest in Internet forums.

It is not an Internet invention, it may have made it popular.
 
Part of the appeal of a scandi grind is that one can lay the flat bevel on a stone and not need a honing guide. The amount of convexing would be minimal unless you are trying to do it. Contrary to what you'll see on many internet forums, adding a small secondary bevel, say 3-4 degrees higher than the primary bevel is not breaking tradition. Makers of these types of blades in the areas of Europe where they have their origins recommend a slight bevel increase for more intense use. The simple answer is yes, you can use a scandi blade for batoning, though you may want to strengthen the edge just a bit first. Also, batoning far predates the internet. Some knives are not intended to endure it however. Ask the maker or test for yourself before relying on one to do it.
 
knifenut1013 said:
Just don't baton, that what axes are for.

Small sticks I can see but a 3-4in log is uncalled for. Batoning is a internet invention, those that don't frequent the interwebs look at you all confused and with a puzzled face when you mention such foolishness.
Click to expand...

I was taught to split wood with a knife in 1962 as part of mountain and desert survival training offered by the U.S.M.C. to candidates for volunteer SAR groups. I never heard it called "batonning" until the Age of the Internet.

Bradford Angier demonstrated it at a semiar I attended in 1965. He didn't mention what he was doing. He just split off some slats to make a bow and drill set hearth.

Mors Kochanski wrote about it in the early 1980's.

Dan Beard illustrated using a jack knife to split wood in his 1920 book The Book of Camp-Lore and Woodcraft

If you think this is about knife dilettantes trying to find some new game to play, you might want to research how the Sami people have been using their leuku (Think short machete.) for centuries. You will find it includes splitting wood.

So if we are about to launch off on the semi-annual denunciation of batonning, at least let's get the facts right.

To be sure, as with all uses of tools, judgment is required, and an axe would be nice if you have one. Be if you don't . . . .


A so-called "scandi" edge is not especially strong -- which is probably why is is so rare in reality, even among wood carvers.
 
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Whether my facts are straight or not the way batoning is portrayed on the interwebs is excessive to put it lightly. It's gone so far that people think if you can't baton a folder through seasoned hardwood then its not a "hard use folder". Survival training is one thing but I doubt 90% of those doing this awesome activity are doing it for survival.
 
If you guys watch virtuovice, I was amazed by how his Enzo camper performed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G49oh-5iHOI

After he removed the secondary bevel to give it a 0 scandi grind, it was slightly convex. A quick sum up of the video, he removed the secondary bevel of the scandi grind, and took it to a 0 grind all the way to a 3000 grit chosera. After batonning through a sizable amount of wood and making feather sticks, the edge (mind that it was D2 and it was a high scandi grind) appeared to have no deformations and still could do slow clean slicing movement through paper. I was pretty darn amazed and it was that video that lead to all my questions and want for a dedicated outdoor knife haha.
 
Bladenoobie1 said:
I appreciate the responses. I too, discovered batoning when I joined the forums, but then again I was never really into knives as much until I joined this forum.

Though batonning on a scandi grind is not always advisable, people often do it anyways and alleviate chipping problems with a microbevel. I understand a 4 inch scandi grind blade isn't the proper tool to split larger pieces of wood, but if I were to slightly convex the scandi grind through freehand sharpening (From what I've read and experienced, the slight inconsistencies in body movement results in a slightly convex edge?) and stropping would the edge be strong enough to handle light batonning, as in splitting smaller pieces of wood following the grain?
Click to expand...

Personally I find a slight convex on my Scandi grinds works well to "toughen" up the edge - no more than a degree or maybe two from shoulder to apex. It would certainly be enough for making small splits or notches in a larger piece of wood. Heck, as I was taught you can make one good wedge using your knife along the side of a larger hardwood log, and use that wedge to split other pieces till it disintegrates.
I have used a larger knife to do heavy batonning and it worked OK. Even if you have take down or cut through a larger limb, it can be done in chips rather than overhand pounding on a small knife, I'll notch it on both sides and break it by bending. A lot depends on the wood you're going after and how carefully you select the spot.
 
"Batoning" is a viable technique. Whether one agrees or not, the fact is that it works for it's intended purpose. The first time I was introduced to the technique back in the 80's was from a great book from Bradford Angier called "Survival with Style". I believe the book was written in the 60's.

If you are breaking knives then you are not doing it right. Check your wood and use your head. If you feel too much resistance, pop the knife out and make a wedge.

I practice fire making in every conceivable outdoor condition I can, night and day with both modern and primative techniques. This way I feel confidant that if I have to, I can make a fire at anytime. Fire- boils water, cooks food, warmth, light, moral boost, steralizes, aids in making tool etc. and the list goes on.

Why discount an approach that works.

A properly made scandi will work fine. But it's not just the knife, it's using your head too. Training, practice and common sense all play a role.
 
I like scandi grind a lot, in fact it is my favourite, at least for "bushcraft" tasks, always in 1/8 inch though! Sharpening a scandi will result in a slight convex bevel, whether this is contributing to a stronger edge, I doubt! However, it makes most tasks a bit easier or convenient, particularly shavings etc. I try to avoid a microbevel since it defeats the purpose of a scandi. I try to maintain my scandi edge with a thin leather strop and compound, or more recently with HeavyHanded's washboard. When I need to resharpen it, I use a Norton Crystolon or JWS. I baton all the time with my scandi without any adverse effects - but, I do it very reasonable, more specifically no knots, thin enough diameter (about an inch) etc. Never had a problem. A scandi with a 12.5 dps bevel is not a block smasher, nor a can opener, nail cutter or screwdriver. It is a cutting tool.

As stated above, the actual apex only initiates the cut, right after the shoulder/flat part takes over pushing the wood apart, no more contact for the edge unless knots, twisting etc. That's why one can use a fine scandi grind at all for this.
 
Most UK bushcrafting knives are scandi ground zero edge full tang blades and batonning smaller pieces of wood is an expected part of their workload. So yes.
 
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