Can anyone shed some information about this sword?

Frank Kruse

Frank Kruse

Joined
Jan 21, 2019
Messages
43
I have a customer that brought this little jewel in and he is looking for any information anyone can give about it. It was his dad's sword who received it as a gift during WWII. Thank you for any info I can pass along.


Pictures are in the link
WW2 Katana pics



Austin Blades
 
How confident is he in that story? Who gifted it to his Dad?. It appears to be in tachi mounts which would have been very unusual for that time.
 
Tachi were still around, in fact all WW II swords technically are mounted as Tachi. The only difference is if a sword is worn slung edge down, Tachi. Edge up, katana. The exception is if the sword is signed tachi mei. Mounted as a katana it is called katana signed tachi mei. Another monkey wrench is that there were some smiths who always signed tachi mei. And away we go, LOL.

This could have been a gift I suppose but is a reproduction.
 
I don't think this is a repro. Take a look at the measurements. Nagasa would be around 14"
So very possibly a child's sword or a mamorigatana or something use for bunraku? Too much effort put into the details and even the diamonds are semi decently wrapped. Markings are nonsense yes...but if the nakago is as small as it appears, then maybe they mean something else. Can't see a repro being made to this scale. I wouldn't discount this completely.
 
Brian, I first thought it was perhaps a chigo-zashi but with as much examination as possible with these photos, I still think the blade is non-traditionally made, which would exclude it from being a genuine chigo-zashi.
With the koshirae, even though it is fairly well made, there are too many discrepancies for it to be real. For me, there is no need not look past the tsuba, which is obviously a cheap reproduction. The very fact that that the tsuba and the sword are stamped with the exact same stamps indicate these are most likely assembly marks, making the probability very high that this entire set is a reproduction.

Compare it to the one you have/had, that you wrote about on NMB. I have owned 6-8 genuine ones myself and the one in question here just does not measure up. I have had a few mumei pieces, and a few signed pieces, but nothing genuine with any form of odd stamps as seen on the one in question here. If I remember, yours was signed.

As far as being a bunraku or puppet theater piece, that is possible, but they are not traditionally made either. I have also seen modern boy's day display pieces made with zinc alloy blades.
Regardless of the quality or place of manufacture, if they are not traditionally made, aren't they still technically a copy or reproduction?

In my thinking yes.

But, that is merely my opinion. My opinion along with $5 will get you a coffee most places.
Ed
 
Triton said:
How confident is he in that story? Who gifted it to his Dad?. It appears to be in tachi mounts which would have been very unusual for that time.
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He is very confident in his dads story. He is a school teacher, though he don't teach history, he has a passion for it.
 
By the way, holding it in my hand and physically looking at the sword, its very hard for me to say that it is a reproduction. It may not be made from the common makers of that era, but it doesn't look like a cheap knock off version of any japanese sword i've seen, as a matter of fact, I thought it really looked bad ass and authentic. I was a little concerned about the limited markings on the handle. But I have no experience in Katanas and I have to rely on what I find out from the great experts in these forums. Thanks.
 
Frank Kruse said:
By the way, holding it in my hand and physically looking at the sword, its very hard for me to say that it is a reproduction. It may not be made from the common makers of that era, but it doesn't look like a cheap knock off version of any japanese sword i've seen, as a matter of fact, I thought it really looked bad ass and authentic. I was a little concerned about the limited markings on the handle. But I have no experience in Katanas and I have to rely on what I find out from the great experts in these forums. Thanks.
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There are reproductions and then there are reproductions. Some high quality and some less so. I have no idea what this is or is not.

Who gifted it to his dad?
 
I wouldn't dispute that his dad received it as a gift, if he says so that is good enough for me. I understand that you guys want this to be something great and I wish I could tell you that it was, but in my opinion it is not.

I do think it is a reproduction and over the last 30 years I have owned over 200 Japanese swords. Swords of all levels of quality from lower end to Tokubetsu juyo (highest ranking papers outside Japan).

As Triton pointed out above, even with reproductions they are not all created equal.

However as I stated this is my opinion. If you want to get the opinion of the best sword scholars on the planet, send it to shinsa. Shinsa is a team of Japanese sword scholars who meet, assess and provide their findings by way of what is known as "papers". If legit they will issue Kantei or authentication papers to verify it's authenticity. If they deem it is a reproduction they will not issue papers for it.

There is a shinsa scheduled for April 2022 right here in the US. Want a better opinion, that is your opportunity.
Contact me for details.
 
Frank Kruse said:
By the way, holding it in my hand and physically looking at the sword, its very hard for me to say that it is a reproduction. It may not be made from the common makers of that era, but it doesn't look like a cheap knock off version of any japanese sword i've seen, as a matter of fact, I thought it really looked bad ass and authentic. I was a little concerned about the limited markings on the handle. But I have no experience in Katanas and I have to rely on what I find out from the great experts in these forums. Thanks.
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I have no idea how real or fake that sword is, but it's happened more than a few times that someone has a katana they're absolutely confident was a war prize from WW2 Pacific Theater, passed down from their grandpa who fought on Iwo Jima, etc, and the blade turns out to be an old BudK knockoff from 1989 or whatever, which is the worst outcome in these cases.

Then there was the wakizashi someone posted that I was totally sure was a fake, and it turned out to be a 400 year old authentic Japanese blade. 🤣
 
Mecha said:
I have no idea how real or fake that sword is, but it's happened more than a few times that someone has a katana they're absolutely confident was a war prize from WW2 Pacific Theater, passed down from their grandpa who fought on Iwo Jima, etc, and the blade turns out to be an old BudK knockoff from 1989 or whatever, which is the worst outcome in these cases.

Then there was the wakizashi someone posted that I was totally sure was a fake, and it turned out to be a 400 year old authentic Japanese blade. 🤣
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Exactly. That's why I was pinging for a few additional details there. It happens all the time. Some family article or other gets passed down a few times and it goes from being a letter opener purchased at Woolworths in 1921 to a being dagger used by the De Medici in various assassination attempts.

Not saying that is the case here but it does happen.
 
Yep, I can't tell you how many times I have heard, "grandpa said he pried this from the hands of a dead Japanese soldier who tried to kill him with it while he was hoisting up the flag on Guadalcanal". Turns out to be a Chinese repro.

Ultimately, if the owner of this sword wants to get a definitive answer, he should send it to shinsa. That will end the discussion.
 
I had a gentleman in the store yesterday and he said the sword was of the Nara period (before the samarai). The writing on the sword translated to one five, not 15, but one space five. By the pictures he wasn't able to tell if it was a reproduction. He also said that it would have been owned by a noble family. He was asking if the tsuba was gold or brass, for which I think its just brass.
 
I just realized how miniscule that blade is. It's barely longer than my forearm, practically a miniature. How strange.
 
Frank Kruse said:
I had a gentleman in the store yesterday and he said the sword was of the Nara period (before the samarai). The writing on the sword translated to one five, not 15, but one space five. By the pictures he wasn't able to tell if it was a reproduction. He also said that it would have been owned by a noble family. He was asking if the tsuba was gold or brass, for which I think its just brass.
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Look, what we are trying to tell you is that everyone has an opinion, some are more valid than others perhaps. If you happen to like this guy in the store's opinion better than those offered here (who was this guy and what are his qualifications by the way?) that's certainly your right. If this guy is actually an qualified expert of some sort you might sway some thought here, but otherwise please take the advice offered and have it professionally examined. If you came here looking for some sort of validation that it's a valuable piece you are unlikely to find it for the reasons already mentioned.
 
Frank Kruse said:
I had a gentleman in the store yesterday and he said the sword was of the Nara period (before the samarai). The writing on the sword translated to one five, not 15, but one space five. By the pictures he wasn't able to tell if it was a reproduction. He also said that it would have been owned by a noble family. He was asking if the tsuba was gold or brass, for which I think its just brass.
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Well, that is both incorrect and ridicules. If he believes that you should sell it to him.

If it was from the Nara period (710-794) it would be chukoto and most of those are artifacts. Prior to the 10th century all Japanese swords were Chukoto or straight, single edged swords derived from their similar Chinese predecessors. They were nearly all Hira-zukuri or Kiriba-zukuri.

Yours is not straight, not hira-zukuri or kiriba.

Yes, the marks on the nakago are 1 & 5 as on the tsuba. These are not signatures or dates, they are not done that way. These are assembly marks to keep the parts together. These are used on mass assembly items.
With genuine swords, separate artisans make the the tsuba and sword. If they were signed pieces, they would have different signatures.

I will say this one more time, if you doubt my opinion, send it to Shinsa. You will get the most accurate interpretation available.

I hope for your sake I am wrong. However, if you or the other guy would like to make a wager, if submitted to the April 2022 Shinsa and it passes, I will pay for it.
If it fails, you pay me the shinsa fees and publicly announce the results here.

Included are some photo so you can see what the general articles look like.

The first two are Chukoto or Jukoto. 3-4 is what a mei (signature) looks like on a Japanese sword. even a new one. Last, a signed tsuba example.

I hope this is clear now. I know it is not what you want to hear, but your sword is a reproduction.


.Chukoto.jpeg
chukoto 2.jpeg
Wak_ShigeKuni_NakagoO.jpgwak_sadamitsu_meitrans.jpgTomonobu_Frt.jpg
 
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Are there legitimate 1/2 scale katanas with 14" blades? All the proportions are as if it was a full-sized sword, but it's tiny. It's bizarre. Was that something that used to be made in ancient Japan?
 
Yes, there were genuine scaled down versions known as Chigo-zashi or Boy's sword. They were given to the children of the bushi class starting at around age six if I remember correctly. They varied in size but were proportional to the age and size of the child. They were traditionally made, not replicas.
 
SouthernComfort said:
Yes, there were genuine scaled down versions known as Chigo-zashi or Boy's sword. They were given to the children of the bushi class starting at around age six if I remember correctly. They varied in size but were proportional to the age and size of the child. They were traditionally made, not replicas.
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That's really interesting, thanks for the info SouthernComfort.
 
I think SC is bang on. I think it reeks of a Chinese factory repro, the only ones where I've seen matching numbers like that. That tsuba is a bit disturbing too.
 
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