Can anyone tell me

[Woodcraft]

What steel was used by plumb during the Plumb Victory era?

 

[mastermachetier]

I can tell you they really hold an edge well beyond that I have nothing .

 

[Square_peg]

I'd like to know. I don't think they changed steel during that period, just the finish. Plumb switched early to using one steel for the entire axe. The bit was hardened but mostly the poll wasn't - though it could have been. I think many of those old Plumb Nationals could be poll-hardened into fantastic axes. I think the Victorys could, too. I'd like to know the steel type so I could look up the heat treat process. Anyone got one of these steel analysis guns handy?

https://www.bruker.com/products/x-r...ons/pmi/steel-analysis-with-handheld-xrf.html
https://www.bruker.com/products/x-r...is/handheld-xrf/s1-titan-series/overview.html

 

[garry3]

What steel was used by plumb during the Plumb Victory era?

It was proprietary. I think they called it "special analysis steel". They also used electric furnaces that recorded temperatures. They had the heat treat down.

 

[garry3]

I'd like to know. I don't think they changed steel during that period, just the finish. Plumb switched early to using one steel for the entire axe. The bit was hardened but mostly the poll wasn't - though it could have been. I think many of those old Plumb Nationals could be poll-hardened into fantastic axes. I think the Victorys could, too. I'd like to know the steel type so I could look up the heat treat process. Anyone got one of these steel analysis guns handy?

https://www.bruker.com/products/x-r...ons/pmi/steel-analysis-with-handheld-xrf.html
https://www.bruker.com/products/x-r...is/handheld-xrf/s1-titan-series/overview.html

Thats amazing.
I don't think anyone got to complicated with steels and heat treats. Play with a junker and I bet it wouldn't be to hard to figure out.
You probably don't own a junker do you?

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

I'd like to know. I don't think they changed steel during that period, just the finish. Plumb switched early to using one steel for the entire axe. The bit was hardened but mostly the poll wasn't - though it could have been. I think many of those old Plumb Nationals could be poll-hardened into fantastic axes. I think the Victorys could, too. I'd like to know the steel type so I could look up the heat treat process. Anyone got one of these steel analysis guns handy?

https://www.bruker.com/products/x-r...ons/pmi/steel-analysis-with-handheld-xrf.html
https://www.bruker.com/products/x-r...is/handheld-xrf/s1-titan-series/overview.html

I seem to recall seeing a Plumb catalog page on one of the Facebook groups that indicated that they actually heat treated the polls (on poll-hardened models) softer than the bit in many cases, too, to the point where you may come across Plumbs with hardened polls that still mushroom rather than chip. I could be totally wrong, though. I do know that at least one of the makers out there that also produced hammers (and I'm pretty sure it was Plumb) also heat treated different hammers to different face hardnesses in accordance with their intended application. The company I'm thinking of even had some claw hammers that were identical to one another except for the hardness.

 

[300Six]

I can tell you they really hold an edge well beyond that I have nothing .

You've got yourself a lovely example of one of the earliest of the Plumb Nationals. Official copyright (or is it patent?) of this pattern dates to Sept 10 1948 but there are examples out there with 'Patent Applied For' (early 1948?) stamped on them and then there are also Victory versions that pre-date that. As I understand it Victory stamped heads are post WWII but that designation probably disappeared from Plumb products by 1948.

 

[Woodcraft]

It was proprietary. I think they called it "special analysis steel". They also used electric furnaces that recorded temperatures. They had the heat treat down.

From the ones I have I definitely agree, So much so I would like to know what the steel was as well as the heat treat process they used.

 

[Square_peg]

As I understand it Victory stamped heads are post WWII but that designation probably disappeared from Plumb products by 1948.

They were made during the war and until gov't restrictions were lifted.

 

[300Six]

They were made during the war and until gov't restrictions were lifted.

More details are required if we're properly gonna try to flesh out this conundrum! If "new-fangled" Nationals were already in production (perchance) before WWII ended, and Plumb actually found a way to promote these, it makes a mockery of initiatives encouraging purchase restraint, goods rationing for civilians, and gov't directives to streamline production so as to expedite war materiels. Plumb survived the Depression era and entered the war with a few hundred different sizes and patterns of axes and had pared it down to well under a hundred when it all ended. Creating and producing an entirely new line of axes, during WWII, doesn't strike me as likely. Post war was a whole different commercial ballgame and became a free-for-all for private enterprise. Plus inexpensive fuel oil and thermostat-controlled central heating put a real damper on the marketability of axes.

 

[Square_peg]

Somebody, probably Steve, posted 2 ads like this just last week. The other one was a year or two earlier than this 1944 ad.

 

[Woodcraft]

Both old Plumb and Kelly ads refer to perfect balance. I imagine when they stopped making that claim was around the same time the general public forgot why it was so important. Cool ad. I am a huge plumb fan. Can't get enough.
Do you think they are saying the steel is the same just the finishing process was shorted?

 

[Woodcraft]

I posted this one once (the poll is untouched, just light on the rough)

 

[garry3]

Both old Plumb and Kelly ads refer to perfect balance. I imagine when they stopped making that claim was around the same time the general public forgot why it was so important. Cool ad. I am a huge plumb fan. Can't get enough.
Do you think they are saying the steel is the same just the finishing process was shorted?

They do seem to be a little rougher ground but I thought Steve posted something the other day about the etchings disappearing during the war.

 

[Steve Tall]

They do seem to be a little rougher ground but I thought Steve posted something the other day about the etchings disappearing during the war.

I've speculated that the black paint normally on Plumb heads was not used on the Victory finish and perhaps little or no red stain on the handles.

 

[daizee]

I wouldn't get too hung up on the alloy. It's going to be a fairly simply carbon steel. A good heat-treat on a simple steel will out-perform a crappy or rushed process on something fancier. Of course in the world of collector curios, it IS an interesting question.

 

[garry3]

I've speculated that the black paint normally on Plumb heads was not used on the Victory finish and perhaps little or no red stain on the handles.

Then I am sorry for accusing you then Steve.
I know I just read it the other day and it was legitimate because I was wondering what they used in the etching process that was important to the war effort. If I come back across it in my wanderings I will drop it here.

 

[Agent_H]

I've speculated that the black paint normally on Plumb heads was not used on the Victory finish and perhaps little or no red stain on the handles.

This one has been in the family for a long time but was just passed on to me. Here is a Plumb double bit my father said he bought after OCS in 1972. It’s been to Elk camp every year since. Two weeks ago I passed on to him a boy’s axe that I have been working on and he seemed to really like it.

While we were in the shop he dug around and pulled this one out. I have good memories of it and he figured it needed to be appreciated so he made me take it. There are several boxes of assorted hand tools that have moved with me since leaving home. Came across several that had my Grandfather’s name stamped in them and my Dad was happy to see them still alive – I think he now figures my garage is a refuge for all the tools he doesn’t use.

As far as he remembers, this axe was bought new and is on the original handle. None of use paid attention to that then – they were tools to be used.
Anyway, here are some shots of the old girl.











There is wear, the head is loose, and it’s relatively sharp. Not sure if I want to redo it or just seat the head and clean the edges. Don’t need another working axe. This one just might “hang around” in my garage for posterity.

He also passed on to me that it had two stickers – one on the handle that he stripped off immediately and one on the head that wore enough for him to pick it off out of annoyance. He bought it at a hardware store in Cottage Grove on his way hunting.

There was probably a considerable time lag (6 months to a year?) between when a specific pattern (for instance New Jerseys) was set up for dedicated production in sizable batches, and when those heads were ultimately assembled, finished and delivered to retail outlets. After that, stock turnover more than likely took another year or two to fully sell out. Wouldn't surprise me if lesser known or not-so-popular Victory models were still on the shelves in smaller centres or rural stores right into the early 1950s.

Or maybe even longer in some out of the way places?



My grandfather was a saw filer for several mills and blades were brought to him from crews to straighten and fix as well. Last time out there, my dad pulled a large handmade box from under a bunch of stuff. It was what was left of his saw tools. Couple of larger Dog Head hammers - I assume those were for straightening saw teeth. I'll get pictures but that is probably another thread.

When that Plumb Victory came out it usually meant I had to work while he and his friends drank around a campfire.

 

[Square_peg]

I'd love to see your grandfather's saw filing tools.

 

[jake pogg]

I wouldn't get too hung up on the alloy. It's going to be a fairly simply carbon steel. A good heat-treat on a simple steel will out-perform a crappy or rushed process on something fancier. Of course in the world of collector curios, it IS an interesting question.

Thanks for putting it that way,it goes straight to the point,as well as wisely (and without disrespect)separates it from the collector's/historian's interest in the specific composition of that very alloy(the consistency of which,over time,and different batches,and possibly different suppliers,was not likely to be that constant,to boot...).

What makes an axe what it is,in the simplest terms,is an equation of: Alloy+HT + Edge geometry + Intended usage.

The alloy,just as Daizee tells us,is one of the most common sort.

The geometry is a personal preference of the user,and will be adjusted by him relative the labor performed with the given axe.

So,the most easiest to adjust variable is the temper;possibly,the axe shall come from the maker tempered for high-ish hardness,and upon any evidence of chipping,at a Given grind,be taken down in hardness.

So,specifically apropos this topic,one can re-grind any axe resembling Plumb in general physics,giving it a similar-enough geometry.Then,to approximate that particular Plumb's performance,one would only need to match the hardness.
And provided the hardness not being greatly different,the only difference remaining will be in the edge-retention.it'll be probably slight,and not critical for a working axe.

Kinda related to this topic,there seems to be a peculiar lack of smiths willing to do simple(more or less) maintenance on axes,that's too bad.
it'd be convenient to be able to get your axe reliably re-HT'd after repair,say,or the eye straightened,or even re-bladed entirely.Many are those great old axes one sees around,wore beyond use in the bit only....