Can custom/production collaborations ruin/make a rep?

kgriggs8

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If you were a good custom knife maker and you teamed up with a production knife company that produced garbage, do you think it would look bad on you? What if you teamed up with a production company that had a great rep and your design was poor? Do you think it would hurt your rep or the production knife company's rep more?

I ask this because most people get introduced to a custom knife maker's name by buying a knife from a production company that makes one of his designs. For example, Benchmade has the 940 Osborn. I had never heard of Osborn before the BM knife came out but now I would look at his stuff because I think it is a well made knife and a good design. BM also had the 885 Darkstar Elishwitz (sp?). I had one and didn't think much of it. It was a bad design with good materials, I don't think BM was to blame because it was made well but the design was poor. I consider that the custom knifemaker's fault. I doubt I would ever buy anything from Elishwitz (whatever it is!) becuase there are better designers IMHO.

What about you? Have you been turned off a custom guy because a production knife you bought didn't measure up that bore his name? I do think this is a fair way to judge a knifemaker by the way since I am only considering the design and I take into account the price point. I feel if the custom guy is going to take a paycheck for putting his name on the knife, he needs to take the responsibility if it is a piece of dog doo.
 
I do wonder why a maker would want his designs associated with a manufacturer of low quality knives. Maybe it is the money that they get?

Never had a Benchmade 885, so I can't comment on the design. I would not however judge a makers knives based on one experience with a collaboration knife. Even if the design is basically by Elishewitz, Benchmade may have made changes to make manufacture easier. A person should actually check out the makers custom knives before making a final decision on whether they are good.
 
I am sure what you guys say is true. What I am saying is, for someone that is new to custom knives, they may only have the production varient to base their opinon on. If you had a poorly designed or built knife by BM with custom maker X's name on it, you are probably not going to buy anything from his real custom line. On the other hand, if you had a great custom/production collaboration made by BM (or any production knife company) and it had maker Y's name on it, you might just be tempted to spend the big bucks to get the real deal.

I was not trying to bash any knife maker because I know much of the quality is out of their hands. What I am saying is, custom knife makers need to be careful what they put their name on because it may ruin their rep if they team up with a company that produces junk.
 
I wouldn't judge a maker by a single design, whether it be a collaboration or a true custom piece. Just because one design doesn't appeal to me doesn't mean that none of them will. Just as an example of that, I don't really like tanto blades, so should I just immediatly not even look at any maker that makes them? That would be silly, as they couls just as easily be making many great knives without tanto blades.

I also really doubt that any top notch maker, or any up and coming maker for that matter, would allow a poor knife to be associated with them. I am sure that there is some type of agreement about minimum quality standrds and such to make the design.

Really it is hard to judge a company by any single piece, just as it is hard to judge a maker by one design. Just because a production version of a custom knife isn't really up to your standards doesn't mean that the custom version wouldn't measure up.
 
I don't think you guys are getting my point. Many people DO judge things based on one example. That is why I wonder how many knife makers have been hurt or helped based on the production knives that their names were linked to.

How many times have you heard someone say something like: "I'll never buy a Ford again. I had a Ford and it fell apart after 50,000 miles" It could be any maker but the point is, you make one bad knife,car, gun, or whatever and it can scar your name for a long time.
 
I don't thik that the point is being missed. At best you could judge a particular design by playing with a collaborative piece. Like I said before just because you don't like one design from a maker has no influence over how you like others. Similarly just because a production version of some model isn't good doesn't mean the custom version is bad.

I bought a CRKT Ryan Model 7. I love the design, but didn't really like the executuion by CRKT. I would jump at the chance to buy the custom version if I had the money and it was available. I doubt many people would truly judge a custom makers work based on a production model of a design.
 
Myself, I wouldn't blame a designer for the quality of a production collaberation. Just because one person made a design and put his name to it, it's the company that chooses the materials, production method, and controls the QC. I'm sure some people might blame a desginer for a lousy product, but I won't.
 
Two different markets, I suspect. People who buy low-grade factory collaborations aren't the same people who buy high-grade collaborations or the customs.

Can you list some specific instances of otherwise well-regarded makers pimping out their names and designs for less-than-worthy business ventures?

-Bob
 
The obvious objection to your argument is that what doesn't tickle your fancy may be exactly what someone else is looking for. I love ALL the Benchmade/Elishewitz collaborations. The Dark Star / Sentinel series was one of my favorites.

As to the idea that one example of a maker's work can make or break their reputation (at least in one buyer's eyes) - I don't really agree. In point of fact, I never trust ONE example of anything. Good or bad. It just seems like a potentially foolhardy way of making judgments. With respect to design - the simple fact that a design was approved for production is proof that someone liked the design. As for manufacturing, I hold only the production company responsible for the quality of the knives they produce. It's nice if the custom maker has the time and resources to ride herd on the production lines. A lot of people can't do that, though. As a low-level example, I have a friend who does designs for Master Cutlery. Not exactly top tier stuff. But they pay their designers fairly well, and those commission checks help keep my friend afloat. I imagine the same is true for any custom maker. So personally, I wouldn't judge a maker by the companies he designs for.

First impressions work both ways, too - The first Lightfoot design I ever saw was the Microtech LCC. I absolutely loved it (and still do). However, none of his custom designs ever struck me in the same way (not even the original LCC - go figure). Also, if I see a knife that sickens me, that's often incentive enough for me to Google the designer and see what else he does.

It's a sad fact that many people can't see past a first impression - I think, though, that most knife knuts who plunk down several hundred dollars for something most people wouldn't spend $10 for, develop a more discerning eye for a maker's design / manufacturing quality.
 
knife saber said:
First impressions work both ways, too - The first Lightfoot design I ever saw was the Microtech LCC. I absolutely loved it (and still do). However, none of his custom designs ever struck me in the same way (not even the original LCC - go figure).
The MT Lightfoot and Terzuola collaberations are a couple instances where the production rivals the custom. A handground MT ATCF costs about as much as an actual Terzuola. There's Marfoni custom versions that cost over $2000. I'd personally rather have the MT version because it's a D/A auto.
 
My 2 cents worth.
Knifenut/user may want to try the waters of a custom knife maker, designed by the knife factory. The custom knife in the $350 to $750 range may break the piggy bank. You have been foaming and glazing over knives for more than *three years and have some knowledge of design and knife steels. You are going to purchase a Custom maker/manufacturer design. Trying the waters of the next step up to the custom design knife platform. You know fit and finish, but can look past the wo00OO factor. Steel type, blade grind and the performance are issues you are watching for in your purchase. If the design is a dog, your not going to waste your hard earned money. You should have learned something in the the three year rule. You just have taken a step closer to, becoming a custom knife collector.
* My golden rule: If you stay around in knife collecting for more than three years you are a long term knife nut.

Jeff
 
"Can you list some specific instances of otherwise well-regarded makers pimping out their names and designs for less-than-worthy business ventures?"

Gil Hibben comes to mind. When he teamed up with United Cutlery, it almost made me sick. He is a world class knife maker and to hitch his wagon to one of the worst production knife companies around was a surprise. The funny thing about that was, I think he lent United some class they didn't have before he started to work for them. United was the bottom of the pile in terms of quality (Pakastan knives excluded). They made junk. Hibben pulled them out from the bottom to a place with at least a little bit of respect.

Ken Onion designs have impressed me so much with the Kershaws that I have seen that I would give him a serious look if I were in the market for a custom EDC. I have a Vapor II and for a $20 knife, it has been pretty impressive. I have used and carried it every day at work for the past 1 1/2 years. The design is so good that it makes up for the lack luster materials used. The blade steel is nothing special but it cuts well because of great blade geometry. The opposite can happen as well. You can have a poor design that preforms badly despite being made of high quailty materials.

I was not picking on any maker, I was just using them as examples to clarify my point. Apparently some people like Jeff Pelz get what I mean and other do not. It is probably my fault for not making my point well enough.
 
Bob W said:
Can you list some specific instances of otherwise well-regarded makers pimping out their names and designs for less-than-worthy business ventures?

I do not think he pimps out his name, but Tom Anderson has licensed many designs to Master Cutlery. The designs seem good, but the quality is far below par, in my opinion.
 
To get a colab (in the first place) a knifemaker must have a good reputation. I doubt that big knife companies would gamble on a no-name.

I don't think you guys are getting my point. Many people DO judge things based on one example.

I think we do get your point, that there are people like that out there.
But you won't find many here ;)
 
The way I like to look at any collaboration knife is in two parts.

The first thing I look at is the design itself. Is it well thought out for its purpose, does it fit in my hand, and does it look "cool".

The other area that I look at is the materials used, and the fit & finish.

The designer has much less control over the materials used and how the knife is put together than the shape of it. If I see a solid design that I like, but it is a POS model, I would actually be tempted to contact the designer to see if he can make a good one.

Ben
 
kgriggs8 said:
"Can you list some specific instances of otherwise well-regarded makers pimping out their names and designs for less-than-worthy business ventures?"

Gil Hibben comes to mind. When he teamed up with United Cutlery, it almost made me sick. He is a world class knife maker and to hitch his wagon to one of the worst production knife companies around was a surprise. The funny thing about that was, I think he lent United some class they didn't have before he started to work for them. United was the bottom of the pile in terms of quality (Pakastan knives excluded). They made junk. Hibben pulled them out from the bottom to a place with at least a little bit of respect.

Ken Onion designs have impressed me so much with the Kershaws that I have seen that I would give him a serious look if I were in the market for a custom EDC. I have a Vapor II and for a $20 knife, it has been pretty impressive. I have used and carried it every day at work for the past 1 1/2 years. The design is so good that it makes up for the lack luster materials used. The blade steel is nothing special but it cuts well because of great blade geometry. The opposite can happen as well. You can have a poor design that preforms badly despite being made of high quailty materials.

I was not picking on any maker, I was just using them as examples to clarify my point. Apparently some people like Jeff Pelz get what I mean and other do not. It is probably my fault for not making my point well enough.

You are thinking the wrong way in regards to United. They might be the worst knife company in the world for using knives, but they are the finest company in the world for display knives. There is a huge market for crazy fantasy display knives and United does a great job with some of the best designers.
 
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