Can damascus blades cut?

kamkazmoto

kamkazmoto

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Sep 14, 2002
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About 25-30 years when the modern knife community was rediscovering damascus, the normal damascus blade was 500-2000 layers thick with a packed edge(a blade where where the layers of the damascus are forged thinner toward the edge). A damascus blade from a smith like Moran would cut all day long and still shave. Modern damascus blades seem to be 100-200 layers thick and a lot of makers are using very high quality damascus blanks for stock removal thereby negating the advantages of a packed edge.

I love the repeatable beauty of the modern stainless damascus and the ability of the mosaic damascus makers to forge pictures of almost anything in a knife blade but my question is can they cut or is damascus now just a thing of beauty?
 
It all depends on what you want and the steel you use. For instance 5160 cuts by itself. Why would you want to mix it? Cause it looks cool.

You can have 2 or 5 or 2000 layers, it all depends on the effect you want. Do a search and check out Bruce Bumps web site and Bruce Evans web site for starters.

Damascus is all about imagination and skill. You can do anything you want to.
 
The question you pose is both simple and huge. the simple answer is yes. The damascus made by many of today's smiths does cut well, that is if made by a smith that knows whats going on with steel and heat treating. In fact today, there is more known about steel and why it cuts well than in times past. Many serious bladesmiths are making what can only be termed as genuine scientific inquiry into applied metlurgy. in many cases their research translates into higher and higher performance levels. Edge geometry, steel selection, advanced heat treating methods such as salts with thermocouples with precise read outs and specifications, in short they are not playing around. Guys like Tim Zowada,Kevin Cashen, Howard Clark, Don Fogg, and many others, take the study of sharp and edge retention quite seriously. Talk to a few of these guys and listen to what they have to say on this subject.
 
I agree that there are a lot of very good bladesmiths out there that are producing outstanding working damascus but IMHO there is a lot of damascus that is being put into knives that fails to take advantage of the cutting ability of damascus. It seems that (especially some factories) are selling damascus knives in hopes of producing instant closet queens and are not at all concerned with wheither or not their cutting ability is even as good as their plain blades. Push come to shove a knife should be able to cut and if I am paying a $150 premium over a standard knife for a damascus blade I expect it to cut at least as well as the standard blade. Maybe I am expecting too much or just out of touch with reality. Oh well just old and stubborn I guess LMAO.

Thanks for reading
 
jdsmith

I forgot to welcome you to the Forum. Thank you for making your first post the answer to one of mine. Good Luck, it seems to be a great bunch of guys here.
 
Although I have done no direct testing myself, my reading on this topic and my conversations with many ABS mastersmiths leads me to believe that pattern welded steel is AT BEST no better than the tougher of the two or more steels used in its construction. It is probably not true that damascus steel itself is a superior performer compared to plain jane simple carbon steels like 52100. Wootz steel may be another story, but its darn near impossible to get any of that from anyone.

Pattern welded steel introduces a lot a extra welds into the blade that may detrimentally effect its performance compared to plain carbon steel. Made by the right maker, it will cut and hold and edge very well indeed. But the reason for making it is NOT performance, it is aesthetics. It just looks Great. You are paying for the additional time and skill required to make pattern welded steel, not for addional performance.

Para
 
I have heard some claim that the combination of two different steels in the edge creates a sort of microserration effect. If this is true, I would guess that it is so subtle that most people would never notice it.

Like everyone else has said, yes, Damascus will cut, but the only magical qualities it has are aesthetic.
 
I agree, again, that the todays damascus is primarily decorative and that the increased price is a result of the increased cost of labor and materials necessary to produce a damascus blade but in the back of my brain, behind years of cobwebs there is a little light that says that in certain circumstances (packed edge and other things) that a damascus edge can creat a synergy that will enable it out outcut a plain steel blade of one of its composite steels. If there is a bladesmith out there that can post a definitive answer I would love to hear it. Please remember that my opinion is a compilation of a bunch of half remembered stories and if my expectations are unrealistic please let me down slowly.

edited because I pushed the wrong button at the wrong time ... technical incompetence rears its ugly head again
 
I would also like to take this opportunity to welcome another great maker to these forums. Hopefully we will see a lot more from J.D. Smith in the future. Talking about wootz, if I am not mistaken, J.D. works with that steel.

It is correct of course, that pattern welded steel is not magical. When made by a smith that really knows his/her stuff, it can be as good as any other comparable steel. You do have to be careful when sharpening it though. It is very easy to damage the finish if you happen to make a little slip. This is something that I learned from experience.

Edited to correct a typo.
 
jdsmith and all

Sorry, I got hung up in my peeve and forgot to do my homework. Mr. Smith is a Mastersmith, member of the Knifemakers Guild, teaches (or taught?) at the MA College of Art and has taught clases in damascus steel. If anyone should know he should. I bow to you and your vastly superior qualifications. I hope to be able to talk to some bladesmiths in the show in Las Vegas or the one in Anaheim in Feb. Thanks and now that you are out of the closet join in more often, I am sure that your input will be appreciated by all.
 
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12497

For those who don't want to click...This post is from Kevin Cashen:

Pattern welding - the truth

Pattern welded steel has gone through an interesting evolution over the years and plenty of pure BS has been said about it, both positive and negative. The stuff started out as the secret super steel of the ancients that could out-cut and out-strength anything out there. Somehow combining two different steels made super steels out of both of them. The hard layers were harder than normal steel and the soft layers were tougher than Clark Kent’s toenails! It was all pure BS, of course. And none of it could be proven because the hard /soft layer thing prevented an accurate hardness test. Even more pure bovine fertilizer. You dump enough 1018 into the mix and your HRC will be lower without any layering nonsense.

Now the material is losing its golden exterior and, at times taking the opposite extreme. “ The stuff doesn’t hold an edge like normal steel. “ What stuff? With the thousands of possible combinations of good steels, what stuff? Some is terrible, low carbon steel usually is for blades. Some is pretty darned good! The stuff rusts quicker than normal steel. To this I shout ABSOLUTE BS! A poorly neutralized etch rusts very quickly but this has nothing to do with the steel. My pattern-welded blades can sit around or see use much longer than my homogeneous blades without preventative maintenance.

I can hear you “Kevin what bug got up your butt?” I just got back online and felt like posting something and this has been on my mind for some time. What really brought this about was a test I performed the other day. I have done the test many times before and it still excites me every time. I had a portion of a billet in the shop and I could not remember if it was blade steel or fittings steel (softer). I heated a ¼” thick section of it up and quenched it in oil and then slipped it under the hardness tester. The test quickly showed me that this was my favorite old O1/L6 blade mixture. In a typical cross pattern of about 14 readings, every one was 65.5HRC as quenched (no temper). Does anybody need a better as quenched hardness? But just as important, no deviation! Hard /soft layers, give me a break! :D

And speaking of break, that is what I then did to it (HRC #’s aren’t everything). The fractured grain size was so fine that the surface was smooth and almost shiny (velvety would be coarse in comparison)! Under normal lighting the fracture looked like homogeneous steel. Under intense light, at varying angles, slightly different shades could be seen in the L6 layers but there were not 3 dimensional differences in the surface of the layers.

What am I saying with all of this? Some people need to get over it. Pattern welded steel is exactly that- STEEL. Not a super material and not a low performance “pretty” metal, that is all determined by the smith not the steel. I believe it does have some interesting qualities in how it forms and loses and edge, but it is just steel.

Most of my blades are pattern welded, stop and think about how much more I could sell if I lied and said that it was an ancient super steel that modern alloys couldn’t touch. But I have a conscience and the truth is worth more than a quick buck.
Click to expand...
Hope that helps somewhat.
 
Thank You.. that is about a complete answer as I could have hoped for. I can only attest to the quote

"To this I shout ABSOLUTE BS! A poorly neutralized etch rusts very quickly but this has nothing to do with the steel. My pattern-welded blades can sit around or see use much longer than my homogeneous blades without preventative maintenance."

This much I can personally attest to. I have a Salamander Forge random pattern dagger made form metor (sp?) damascus. I have owned this knife or about 15 years and for at least 5 of those years it was suck in my knife box and had ABSOLUTELY no maintence ..I was out of the country.. When I got back and checked it had NO rust not even a light coating. It has resisted rust as well as any on the stainless knives I own.
 
hey Kamkazmoto,
Just to let you and anybody else interested know, Plain meteorite damascus will not hold an edge very well, as it is mostly iron, and has no carbon content, unless it has been mixed with another steel.
Kyle Fuglesten
 
Kile, Man and I thought I stayed up late.

You are absolutely right, I remember a story where Bill Moran said the same thing. I have to admit I have no idea if this blade is mixed with anything or not and I have no idea how well it cuts. I hate to admit this but this knife is a "closet queen" if for no other reason than because the blade shape is really impractical. It is a 5" single edge Sgain Dudh (spelling from their website) and kinda looks like this

http://www.atar.com/instock/028-9902-002.html
 
The thing about damascus that you can't forget, is it's not a standardized material such as a commercial steel (e.g. 1095). Each batch of damascus steel is different. There can be differences throughout a single piece of damascus. Damscus can cut, but not all damascus will provide the same type of cutting performance. You need to put the name of the smith in front of the word damascus before you even start talking performance.

Forged damascus blades has the same advantage over stock removal damascus blades as you'd expect to see in the native steels used in the damascus. For example, a forged damascus knife of L6/1095 would have the same performance advantage over a stock removal knife as a forged 1095 or L6 alone would have over a stock removal knife.
 
Welcome JD. Good to see you here and I hope you enjoy BF.

Here is a pic of Ray Kirk's knife that won a cutting competition at the Spirit of Steel show this year.
attachment.php


I agree that sweeping damascus statements can not be accurate :D.

Great thread with some answers by those who know of what they speak.
 
Greeting's All I Can only Speak for My self and No one Else !! The Reason "Damascus" has such a Mixed Reputatuion is Simple Many Knife Maker's Buy a Piece of Damascus at a "Show " abd treat it as
"Bar stock" !! if they want to grind fine but they should give the Steel it's Due!! Forge it to Shape !! in Forging Damascus My Goal is to Control the Carbide's within the steel then a Little Touch up Grinding followed by "Normalizing" and Heat treat Many Maker's just treat Damascus as "Pretty Steel" I Truely feel that is not doing the steel "Justice" if not done correctly !!I Have a Couple of Large Knive's that can Cut well , Retain Edge Well, Flex under Small amount's of Pressure !! I Personally Love this "Damascus Stuff" I See it as a Great Challenge to Take a "Knife Maker" and Turn them into a "Bladesmith" which is at Least twice the Work , Now you Must Make the Steel Before "Making The Knife !!

Sorry to Rant i will get off the Soap Box Now


http://www.pinoyknife.com
 
Originally posted by kamkazmoto
About 25-30 years when the modern knife community was rediscovering damascus, the normal damascus blade was 500-2000 layers thick with a packed edge(a blade where where the layers of the damascus are forged thinner toward the edge). A damascus blade from a smith like Moran would cut all day long and still shave. Modern damascus blades seem to be 100-200 layers thick and a lot of makers are using very high quality damascus blanks for stock removal thereby negating the advantages of a packed edge.
Click to expand...

Packed edge, eh? ;)
Here's another quote from Kevin Cashen over at Swordforum. He's talking about the myth of "edge packing".

"This is one of those bits of nonsense that just will not die. I don't know how many times we have laid it in it's grave in a bloody heap on this forum alone, just to have it sprout another hydra like head and start breathing bull$&!# all over again! So none of my intensity is directed at anybody on this forum, but at all of those folks on the internet and beyond that don't at least crack a book or two before perpetuating this utter nonsense.

Steel is an incompressible substance, that is why forging and rolling mills work. You squeeze it one way and it will expand the other, not just get smaller. You don't even need a metallurgical background to figure this one out, high school level science will do. You can't pack metal molecules without the proper preparation. Preparation like the boys at the trinity test site had.

Now for the basic metallurgy. If you hammer on it at a proper forging temperature, recrystalization will fix your meddling as you go. If you cold work it or plastically deform it below critical (ala "edge packing", I hate to even say it ) due to vacancies, edge dislocations and other havoc in the lattice the steel will probably be less dense, yes the steel would probably have a slightly lower density.

Fortunately most all of it can be corrected on the very next Ac1+ heat. In most cases, heat has the ability to correct or destroy almost anything the hammer does, and thank god for that!"
 
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