Can someone help me to understand Remington Slipjoints

E

effer

Joined
Feb 13, 2009
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As title says, I just don't get it. I was looking around on the net and here is what I found on a very first Remington page from one of the vendors:

1) Remington® "Lock, Stock & Barrel" 2011 Bullet Knife
RE18965.jpg


·Lockback
·440 high carbon stainless steel blades
·Two independent lockback mechanisms
·Mahogany gunstock jigged bone handle
·Nickel silver pins, liners, bolster and bullet shield
·4-1/2" closed
·Certificate of authenticity

Price: $109.99

2) Remington® "Double Strike" Copperhead 2010 Bullet Knife
RE18995.jpg


·Copperhead
·440 stainless steel blades
·Mahogany jigged bone handle
·Brass liners
·Nickel silver pins, bolsters and bullet shield
·2-3/4" clip pt and spey blade lengths
·3-3/4" closed
·Certificate of authenticity

Price: $49.99

3) Remington® 2010 Christmas Whittler with Red Jigged Bone Handle
RE17548.jpg


·440 stainless steel blades with commemorative imprint
·Red jigged bone handle
·Brass pins, liners, bolsters and color filled Remington® shield
·3-1/2" closed
·Full color custom gift tin
·BONUS Remington® keyring

Price: $11.99

Fairly similar (similar enough) knives from the same manufacturer. All listed with the same materials. 440 steel, bone handle. Where such price difference comes from? What makes #1 twice expensive than #2? Lockback? What make #2 four times more expensive than #3. I just want to understand this.
 
effer said:
Fairly similar (similar enough) knives from the same manufacturer.
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Let's stop right there. Remmington, AFAIK, doesn't manufacture any knives themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if they never did. They contract/contracted knives to other manufacturers. I know Camillus made a lot for them, but not anymore, obviously.

The bottom knife is undoubtedly made in China. The middle one I'm certain is made by Bear and Sons (google "Bear and Sons copperhead and you'll see). I can't place the top one. Could very well be NOS Camillus manufacture. There's not many double lockback knives out there, and I know Camillus made some.
 
the true made by remington were made from about 1920 to 1939. in my opinion these were some of the best folders ever produced in the u.s.a. about 1982 remington started a line of knives made by camillus, to my knowledge this arrangement continued until camillus shut down their american plant.---dennis
 
Moved from Traditional to General Knife. Traditional does not discuss financial aspects.
 
Planterz said:
Let's stop right there. Remmington, AFAIK, doesn't manufacture any knives themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if they never did. They contract/contracted knives to other manufacturers. I know Camillus made a lot for them, but not anymore, obviously.

The bottom knife is undoubtedly made in China. The middle one I'm certain is made by Bear and Sons (google "Bear and Sons copperhead and you'll see). I can't place the top one. Could very well be NOS Camillus manufacture. There's not many double lockback knives out there, and I know Camillus made some.
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I have suspected that from the very beginning... but nowhere (not even on Remington's website) there are any mentions of origins (be it B&S, Camilius, or any other). Not even a country where it was made.
Is it safe to assume that materials are the same? When it plainly states 440, I always assume 440A.
Also is it really a fact that $49.99 knife will be built better than $11.99, especially when Remington doesn't really disclose what factory built the knife?
 
DennisStrickland said:
the true made by remington were made from about 1920 to 1939. in my opinion these were some of the best folders ever produced in the u.s.a. about 1982 remington started a line of knives made by camillus, to my knowledge this arrangement continued until camillus shut down their american plant.---dennis
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Dennis, do you know what steel was used in 1920-1939 production and what steel was used by Camillus from 1982 to what ever year Camillus shut down. What happened from 1939 to 1982? No knives?
I was interested to figure out current production, but would love to know some history too.
 
effer said:
I have suspected that from the very beginning... but nowhere (not even on Remington's website) there are any mentions of origins (be it B&S, Camilius, or any other). Not even a country where it was made.
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B&S are American made. It seems odd that they wouldn't advertise this. It seems equally not-odd that they wouldn't advertise that the cheap ones are made in China.
Is it safe to assume that materials are the same?
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Yes and no. For example, Case vs Rough Rider or Steel Warrior. A Case stockman costs 2-4 (or more) times a RR or SW does. "Same" materials. Bone, brass, nickel silver. The RRs and SWs often have better F&F than the Cases. But in my (albeit somewhat limited) experience though, they aren't created equal. The bone on the RRs bleed the dye (and can change colors after doing so), and on my SW, the bone has warped a bit. I have Cases that are nearly 40 years old and the bone hasn't warped. Also, the nickel silver bolsters on my RR and SW tarnish very quickly, whereas the Cases don't. When it plainly states 440, I always assume 440A. [/quote]
So do I. Remember though that heat treat is every bit as important as the steel itself. I've seen 440C on Chinese made knives (like S&Ws) that were absolute junk, and 440A from American manufacturers that is perfectly serviceable.
Also is it really a fact that $49.99 knife will be built better than $11.99, especially when Remington doesn't really disclose what factory built the knife?
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Again, yes and no. It's like that with slipjoints, an unavoidable evil that we all have to deal with. Often it seems that when buying a Case knife, you have to go through several to find one that's "just right", or even merely "good enough". Blade wobble, blade rub, proud springs...all "par for the course". Even the higher end knives like Queens can have these issues, and Queens are notorious for having crummy edges out of the box. But you can be more assured that a Rough Rider or Steel warrior won't have these issues, at least not to the same degree, even though they're a fraction of the cost. But when you find a good Case or a good Queen, you can be assured it'll outlast the Chinese made knives by far.
 
DennisStrickland said:
the true made by remington were made from about 1920 to 1939. in my opinion these were some of the best folders ever produced in the u.s.a.
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Yep - WW1 pretty much closed the door on the dominance of premium British and budget German cutlery, and the end of the war left Remington idle with few military contracts and lots of factory space and financial resources from their war profits, so they filled the gap by gearing up for domestic cutlery production in 1920. Ironically, the onset of WWII revived their military contracts and forced them to shut down the knife factory, so in effect, one war brought them into the knife business, and another war pulled them out of it.

I don't know about the 'best' US pocketknives, Dennis, but Remington did for cutlery what Ford did for cars; they both streamlined and ramped up mass production to new levels of automation. At their peak, the Remington factory was said to have produced in excess of 10,000 knives a day, which is pretty remarkable for the times. The quality was quite good, but I think a few turn-of-the-century plants that relied on the hand craftsmanship of immigrant Old World cutlers had them beat.
 
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rick's knowledge on remingtom i would'nt question especially since some of the remingtons [old] he has are like the day they were produced. i do believe the carbon steel they used & their attention to heattreat made them cut up with the old henckles. their knives certainly faded the case & most other american factories at the time. a gun maker has tons of experience since they work with many different steels & heattreats. from springs , to firing pins to barrels. their models were produced in a tremendous variety with the bullet folders becoming some of the most highly collected old knives in history. 1982 saw the gun maker turn to camillus to make a line of cut. with the old 2 blade standard bullet as the first. they had decent quality & were fairlr popular . i believe most were made with 440a steel by camillus. dennis
 
Remington Knives Past & Present by Roy Ritchie and Ron Stewart is a great resource on Remington Knives.

Or some good basic stuff is here.
http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/remington_knives/index.php

Remington did make their own knives from the 1920's until the early 1940's when they sold their cutlery division to PAL.

Then the name was revived later with Camillus making the bulk of those, then after Camillus died there has been several "lines" of Remington knives hit the market contracted from different makers both domestic (Bear & Sons) and foreign (Misc. Chinese & Fox in Italy making some modern tactical styles).
 
Thanks for the history. Good to know. Question still remains about the current production. Should the buyer just guess the build quality and origins based on price? How much of the difference in quality is really there from one model to another? Any reviews and comparisons of recent Remington slipjoints?
 
effer said:
Thanks for the history. Good to know. Question still remains about the current production. Should the buyer just guess the build quality and origins based on price? How much of the difference in quality is really there from one model to another? Any reviews and comparisons of recent Remington slipjoints?
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pretty much

Hard to tell without know exactly who built them. Here's some educated guesses.

The cheapie is most likely made in China. A lot of the Chinese imports are of reasonable quality. Worth the price charged.

If the middle one came from Bear, it might also be of reasonable quality, But may or not be nicer than the Chinese. Bear has a history of spotty QC. Utica also builds traditionals in the US. Quality of the Uticas are pretty fair, though at the price you cited you are paying extra for the Remington name.

If the $110 one were made by Queen, which for all I know it might be, it would be worth the extra price, though you'll be paying extra for the Remington name. Queen makes a fine product.
 
You get what you pay for, but don't forget about "diminishing returns."

A $100 knife may not be worth twice as much as a $50 knife.

This is where you account for the value of personal preferences.

The two knives may perform exactly alike, but the small differences of the more expensive knife might be worth paying twice as much for to that particular customer because they highly value the smaller details that the $50 dollar knife did not have.
 
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