Can we talk about making damascus?

Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Messages
10,188
I've been around a while, and never had the slightest inclination to make damascus, Then, overnight, I really want to make some. Go figure! I'm interested in the best steel selections for strenght, edge retension, and appeareance (isn't everyone). I'm sure you guys have your favorite steel combinations, I'd love to hear what they are and why you like those combinations. I've never really understood getting various paterns either, some twist, some score, so what's a good source to educate myself on paterns? Frankly, this is such a new area for me I'm not even sure what to ask. Help me out, fellas, por favor.
 
1084 and 15n20 is the best to begin with. It welds the easiest, and ht easy, and hold an edge fine. There is all kinds of patterns, I would recommend random, then ladder or twist after that. Good luck!
 
1084 and 15n20 is the best to begin with. It welds the easiest, and ht easy, and hold an edge fine. There is all kinds of patterns, I would recommend random, then ladder or twist after that. Good luck!

Okay, I get random, even twist and I suppose ladder. But it's still a bit of a mystery for me. I guess a tutorial is needed. I'll have to look around.
 
David,

The biggest concern with welding layers of different steels is compatibility. That's the main reason most use the 1084/15N20 mix. If you put steels that are too different together you risk introducing stress into the Damascus.

Gary
 
Gary, those are the steels I'm starting with. I'm trying for a welded billet using a 1084 3/16's flat bar, a .058 flat bar of 15N20, and another 1084 3/16's flat bar stacked on top. My very first try at damascus.
 
Here is a pic of ladder ready for flattening out.
524B1F50-89CF-4412-A936-74EA9706A680-283-000001686E2F456E_zpsee633c78.jpg

It's prob 200-300 layers, don't remember exactly anymore. I ground the groves free hand with a 1/8" cut off wheel in a 4" grinder.
Good luck on your first attempt. Get it warm, flux it, get it hot, and tap it together. Brush, reflux, reheat, hit it harder. Repeat as needed.
 
Thanks, Cody

For some weird reason I feel quite confident I'll pull this off. Since this is my first shot, I'm going to do a random pattern. I appreciate the how to photo and encouragement.
 
Get it hot! When I started I had spotty success because I will afraid I would hurt the steel with too much heat. It is possible but until you see sparks comming off like a sparkler, you are all set. All the huge grain can be refined after the welding is done. For me when the damascus smokes like crazy when you pull it out of the forge is a good indicator of forge welding temps.
 
I will reinforce JMJones on the hot part.

Welding heat isn't just really red...it is the point where steel will fuse. There are several methods of checking that the billet is ready to weld, but one that works pretty well is to use a length of coat hanger wire. Heat it a bit and dip the end in some flux. Then, when you think the billet is ready to weld, stick the wire in the forge and touch it to the billet. If the billet is at welding heat, the wire will stick to it. If it does not fuse, the billet isn't hot enough.

The second place where new damascus welds go south is forgetting that the WHOLE billet needs to be at welding heat, not just the outside. A full soak at welding heat assures that the center is as hot as the outside. Some folks wait until, the outside corners/edges start to send off sparklers.

The welding forge is not a smelting forge you don't need, or want. It does not need to be at 3000F, just a fully soaked chamber at 2300-2400F.

For those who want to know WHY damascus welds, and then figure the how out more easily:
Welding is done by fusion. In arc welding, the steel is fused by melting a small puddle of it and either fusing the two pieces in the arc, or adding a filler metal.
In damascus, the two metals used are fused by bringing them almost up to the fusion ( melting) point...BUT not quite getting there. Oxygen and oxides must be kept out of the joint, as metal oxides have a much higher melting point than the metals themselves. This is what the flux does.
Once the metal is at near-fusion point, the metals can be joined by adding energy to the junction of the two surfaces. The added energy raises the temperature at this junctions, and causes the two surfaces to fuse ( melt) together in a very shallow weld. This can be done by hammering, squeezing hard in a vise, a flywheel press, or in a hydraulic press. A hydraulic press delivers a very evenly distributed and high amount of energy, and has become the go-to system for production welding. If using a hammer, either by hand or power hammer, it is not how hard the impacts are, but how rapid and evenly they are distributed. It actually takes very little force to bring the 2300F metal into a full surface contact and then have the excess energy go into the boundaries and fuse the metals. Hit it too hard and you add too much energy, raising the temperature above the fusion point into the melting point...and sending molten metal all over the room, or crumbling the whole billet into chunks of would-have-been damascus. If all this energy and boundaries stuff sounds a bit like the metallurgy in HT, that is because it is closely related.

When setting the weld steady and even pressure is what you want. Use light hammer blows that quickly cover the entire surface, starting from the center and working out toward the edges...or a press that covers it quickly and evenly with smooth pressure all over.

Having read that, it is easy to see how cold shuts, flux inclusions, or full blown de-laminations can happen.
The rules to avoid these are simple:
Get it HOT enough
Get the junction CLOSE enough
Get the OXIDES out of that surface junction
Bring the JUNCTION together completely under pressure
Get all that done QUICKLY and EVENLY
Repeat the weld to make sure the above was completely done.
 
This is all GREAT information, Guys.I'll make sure to get it plenty hot. Should I go for a yellow color, or is reddish orange enough? Stacey, that wire coat hanger tip alone will be a great help. One of my concerns is I'm afraid I won't get all the flux out, will that ruin the billet? How will I know it's all out? I've read you turn the billet and hit it on the sides until it bows in the center. This is supposed to drive the flux out. Keep in mind, guys, I don't have a power hammer or press, so this will all be done with the hammer.
 
When hand setting damascus, and using borax flux, the molten flux should be expelled in the hammering. That is also one reason you start in the center and work toward the edges.

Many now use hydrocarbon as the flux. Many things from kerosene to other things seem to work well...without leaving any glass material to be accidentally included. Also, some folks TIG the entire billet together on every seam ( tightly clamped in a vise) to make the billet oxygen free. Effectively, the billet becomes its own canister.

Do a search on non-flux welding and hydrocarbon flux welding. I think this is becoming the way to go.

A heavy leather apron, heavy cotton clothing, and eye protection must be worn. A clear area around the anvil for 10-15 feet, IN EVERY DIRECTION, of any flammable materials ( dead grass, leaves, paper, bales of hay, gasoline cans, etc.) is needed in hand welding damascus. It will send sprays of 2000F flux in all directions. Eye protection and skin protection for everyone watching or working nearby is a must.
Just a preparation comment for those who have never done flux welding....flux really burns when it gets on you. Especially when it falls in your shoe top :)
Boots with high tops and the pants leg over them is a really good idea. Another good thing to wear is welders spats, chapps, and armlets.
 
One last question. I'm planning on building my billet from 2 pieces of 1084 which are 1.25" X 3/16's x10" with a piece of identically sized 15N20. Three pieces altogether. Is this sufficient to make a good billet? Or should I go 5 layers? My concern if I go that size is it may be too big to forge by hand.
 
I would start with a shorter stack, if it where me. It deepened on your forge and of it has a hot spot. You can weld a stack that long, but you will have to do it in several heats. I would cut those in thirds. After a soak at temp, pull it out and as fast as you can, with over lapping blows, run down the billet with quick, light, blows. Reflux, reheat, and this time have the other side up. The anvil will draw heat out. I normally do this, once each side before I start drawing it out. A buddy with a sledge come is handy at this point!!! I always weld a handle of rebar or some other mild steel, thae last thing you need to be thinking about is tongs, or flying steel that's over 2000 degrees!!
 
I learned more about Damascus from Bruce Bump's WIP threads on KnifeDogs than any book or video I have paid for.

But he's using a press and temp controlled forge, not by hand.
 
Hey yall. Bldsmth gave a pretty accurate set of information and instructions. I can only add this. Be patient, Let the steel get to temp. If you are planning to hand hammer the billet, take your time and do not try for a high layer count on your first go around. Also, if you are hand hammering, use reason as to the size. Its much easier to control a 6 inch long billet than 12. Or go for 4 inches by a 1" stack. Flux is your friend and your enemy. Use it or not. It helps. This is just my opinion. Above all else, use safety. And have fun.
 
Last edited:
Hey yall. Bldsmth gave a pretty accurate set of information and instructions. I can only add this. Be patient, Let the steel get to temp. If you are planning to hand hammer the billet, take your time and do not try for a high layer count on your first go around. Also, if you are hand hammering, use reason as to the size. Its much easier to control a 6 inch long billet than 12. Or go for 4 inches by a 1" stack. Flux is your friend and your enemy. Use it or not. It helps. This is just my opinion. Above all else, use safety. And have fun.

Thanks. I will start with a smaller piece than I'd originally planned. As for flux, I may try the kerosene method.
 
You really need a press to use hydrocarbons. The first blow with a hammer shatters the carbon shell and the 02 will invade the billet. When you get a press, move to hydrocarbon solvent; it makes the whole experience more pleasant with a high degree of success as well.

Have fun with this and show us what the results are. Fred
 
Back
Top