Canadian Shipping?

Joined
Aug 4, 1999
Messages
2,596
I know this has been a topic before but.....
A simple 3.5" bladed neck knife seems to fall into the banned catagory that UPS explained to me. I this true?? One of the archives disgussed shipping a BIG Busse Knife to Canana. Was that considered a kitchen knife? If the knife is stopped and held by customs, do they return it to the sender??
Thanks,
Neil

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Nonsense! The law in this area is complex, but this much is clear:
The importation of firearms, knives and the like is governed by ss. 103 and 104 of the Criminal Code. The corresponding provisions regarding possession and use appear at ss. 84 et seq. The provisions that are germane to knives are those which define and deal with "Prohibited Weapons". That term is defined to mean, "a)a knife that has a blade that opens automatically by gravity or centrifugal force or by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in or attached to the handle of the knife, or b)any weapon, other than a firearm, that is prescribed[by regulation]to be a prohibited weapon"
With me so far? Insofar as we are dealing with a neck knife, the only question is whether that type of knife has been prohibited by Regulations promulagated through lawful Orders in Council. No Regulation, lawful or otherwise, purports to classify a neck knife as a prohibited weapon. Therefor, there is no prohibition against importing neck knives, as such.
UPS can choose not to import whatever it wants, subject to the law of contract, etc., but the point is that it is not against the law of Canada for them to do so.
Canadian Customs can seize whatever it wants, unfortunately, but you can require that the item so seized be released. If there is no other issue, such as duties owing, etc., you can require that a neck knife be released. There is a specific mechanism set out in the Customs and Excise statute. You have to follow it carefully. You have 30 days to serve Notice and to require the Minister to decide whether to release. Customs has to specify why there was a seizure, etc. If the Minister decides against you, there is an appeal to the Canadian Federal Court, and there is also the possibility of a Judicial Review application.
These comments should not be construed as a legal Opinion and no reliance should be placed for that purpose;this is for general information purposes. An Opinion would require a careful consideration of all material facts.
Anyway, neck knives are not "against the law" up here, and neither is their importation through the mail or otherwise. Ask the clown who is giving you trouble to cite the specific provision of the specific statute or regulation is he relying on to act like a fascist.
But be forewarned, Customs officials in Canada have alot of discretion and arbitrary power, which they will exercise against you if you get them angry. To fight them through the Courts would cost you serious money, and would cost them little or nothing. I've found that you get alot further trying to be polite and reasonable first. Sometimes they reciprocate. But it certainly helps to know the law.
I hope that helps a bit.
 
Let me say that I have seen Cold Steel neck knives being sold in Toronto. However, I think they're less than 3.5". Also, how would you consider a Camillus CUDA. It has a button that opens with thumb pressure (sort of). I think it's a pretty gray area but I ended up getting mine today. I think it was opened by customs cause there's this white and blue tape all around the packaging reading "Inspected by Customs."

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ET

 
I get most of my stuff through a Canadian internet dealer (www.nt.net/~admclean/Index.htm) so he deals with customs not me. I have had a few knives come up from the states and I've found that most of them come up to me in shoebox sized boxes labeled "tool". They go through customs real fast. Since I've gotten knives from the states, I tell the person I'm buying from to package them this way. Also, if it's made in the US, make them put that on the manifest, under NAFTA you will not be charged any duty, only provincial tax. As for the original issue about the neck knife, HJK clearly knows what he's talking about, the only thing I could add is that if the CS neck knife is close enough in design to a push blade, customs will be a problem. Best of luck!

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"Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heav'n"
John Milton
There are only two types of people; those who understand this, and those who think they do.
 
The only other limitation on knives in Canada is a prohibition on push daggers, otherwise there is no limit on size etc.

The police rely on the dangerous weapon provision of the criminal code because it can be interpreted to prohibit almost anything from shoes to slingshots.

In dealing with customs labeling the box "cutlery" usually avoids problems. It accurately defines the contents without raising any flags.
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george
www.tichbourneknives.com
sales@tichbourneknives.com

[This message has been edited by george tichbourne (edited 25 October 1999).]

[This message has been edited by george tichbourne (edited 25 October 1999).]
 
About a month ago I bought a Mad Dog Wild Thing from an individual in Canada. He shipped it Canadian Postal Service insured. He was required to indicate on a customs stamp on the face of the package the contents and value. Apparently the appeal of an $800 (Canadian) USA-made Hunting Knife (that's how it was labeled) was simply too much to take for one unscrupulous mail/package handler.

The moral of the story is that if you are required to list the contents and value, tools(or something else related) are certainly less desirable than expensive cutlery.

Have no sympathy for me, though, as I will have a brand new Shrike on the way tomorrow.
 
Gene Osborn shipped my 13.5" blade via UPS to Tom Haslinger in Canada for heat treatment (BG-42).
What a nightmare.
It disappeared for 20 days and when Tom finally got it, it had received so much damage all parties considered it unrepairable.
Happily, we had pre-shipping pictures and so Gene should recover his labor, but it made everyone involved heartsick.
We won't ship to Canada anymore.
Too bad, as Tom Haslinger has a great reputation as a knifemaker and a heat treater.

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Luke 22:36, John 18:6-11, Freedom

 
One thing to that you need to be careful of concerning canadian customs is intent. Most knives that are intended to be concealed will not get through customs like belt buckle knives and such. The packaging information is also important. Newt Livesays NRG for example would most likely get stopped because of this.

-Cliff
 
George, Cliff, you have identified important issues. George, although the authorities do try to use the dangerous weapon provisions and, Cliff, although they also try to rely on the concealment provisions of the Code, they shouldn't be able to. Here's why:
Importing and exporting knives is dealt with by sections 103 and 104 of the Criminal Code. Those provisions do not deal with "weapons": they deal with "prohibited weapon", which is a defined term under the Code, which I quoted above. "Any knife commonly known as a 'push-dagger'..." is a prohibited weapon: Order No. 4, para. 9. That regulation goes on to clarify what such a knife is, in terms of its "design", and to specifically exempt the inuit "ulu". Concealment, and dangerousness are irrelevent. That should be that. Of course, it doesn't actually work that way. The other sections of the Code are often mixed in, which they shouldn't be [unless, of course, there is a basis to suspect that you are "aiding" or "abetting" the commision of one of the following criminal offences].
The "dangerous weapon" provision is actually section 88 which prohibits [or more accurately, punishes] "...carr[ying] or possess[ing] a weapon...for a purpose dangerous to the public peace..." Here the law gets more complicated, but it is perfectly clear that there must be proof of an actual purpose in the mind of the accused that is "dangerous to the public peace". Self-defence[yes, there is a case on this], collecting, hunting, customising, heat treating, scrimshawing, sheathmaking, engraving, exhibiting, evaluating,and photographing, can't in any reasonable opinion be considered "dangerous to the public peace". Our Courts have not gone that far[see, for example, R. vs. Sulland], although there is a risk that eventually they might. Therefor, receiving a knife for resale to someone who has one of these proper purposes in mind[or having that as the vendor/recipient's purpose] must also be a proper purpose, not "dangerous" and not an offence. And what relevence does this section have to importing, even assuming a potential violation? Even if an accused has "possession" while a knife is in the possession of UPS or Customs, a point which obviously is questionable, how are the authorities able to divine the purpose of the accused without ever seeing him, or questioning him, or knowing anything about him? All they have in front of them is the knife. Knives don't form purposes or "mens rea"; people do. That's not the NRA:that's a fundamental principle of criminal law. Anyway, although the courts have left open the possibility that under some circumstances the police might be justified in inferring an unlawful purpose with very little inquiry, that has to be a rare or extraordinary case. The mere fact that someone possesses or is shipping a large blade clearly is not inconsistent with the many possible and probable proper and lawful purposes. Moreover, there is a specific provsion which deals with importation. That should be the controlling provision, since it is more specific and therefore must express the intent of Parliament[our congress] with respect to that specific activity.
The provision with regard to concealment is section 90 which penalizes any person who "...carries a weapon...concealed..."
To prove a violation of this section, the Crown must prove, inter alia, that the accused took steps to hide the knife so it would not be noticed or observed. This has no relevence to importation because while the knife is shipped the accused isn't "carrying". It obviously wasn't meant to apply to shipping in boxes and cartons.
Do the police and customs have a legitimate interest at preventing the potential commission of offences at the earliest possible stage so that they should stop all weapons at the border whether or not they are prohibited weapons? Sure, they have a legitimate concern in some cases. But their powers and the rights of civilians are regulated by laws, and the laws balance these law and order concerns with freedom and due process concerns, which is why we have laws, perhaps the most basic of which is the constitutional principle that to restrict freedom you must do so clearly.
The authorities can't confiscate your knives because they think they should. The Criminal Code is the law for them too. Maybe sometime they should read it.
Some men and women in enforcement and customs are great folks who do a great job. Probably many are knife knuts too, although a special place in hell is reserved for those who steal and damage others' property[eternity with nothing but spoons]. But nobody up here is advocating for the knife community. It's a growing problem.
Believe it or not, this is a simplified statement of some of the relevent legal principles. Do not take it as a legal opinion and it is no substitute for consulting a lawyer if you need something more than general information. But, as an old prof of mine used to say, there it is.


[This message has been edited by HJK (edited 26 October 1999).]
 
Also Prohibited Weapons in Canada..
- The device known as the 'Constant Companion', being a belt containing a blade capable of being withdrawn from the belt, with the buckle of the belt forming a handle for the blade, and similair device.
- Any knife commonly known as a 'push-dagger' that is designed in such a fashion that the handle is placed perpendicular to the main cutting edge of the blade and any other similiar device other than the aboriginal "ulu" knife..
- Any device having a length of less than 30cm and resembling an innocuous object but designed to conceal a knife or blade, including the device commonly known as the "knife-comb", being a comb with the handle of the comb forming a handle for the knife, and any similiar device.
The laws of Canada do not prohibit one from carrying a fixed blade of any size if as explained it is not concealed.
 
I keep having mixed emotions about checking back to this thread!! I think I should call the knife a letter opener and send the easy to conceal sheath separately.
Maybe I could put it inside a fruit cake......
I appreciate everyones help! I WILL send it USPS and see what happens, I'll let everyone know how it goes.
I think all the Molson Brador we smuggled back from our ski trips is coming back to haunt me!!!!
Neil

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Any one who has had the nerve to smuggle a case of full strength Brador across the border should not worry about shipping a knife.

All kidding aside shipping into Canada is no more daunting than me shipping into the US. There are custom people on both sides of the border who get carried away with themselves and decide to become enforcement officers instead of inspectors. The simplest approach is not to attract their attention to the package because very few packages are actually opened for inspection.

My strategy is to ship in a plain cardboard box with extra packaging to keep the knife secure, not rattling around inside. The box is heavily taped to discourage opening.
I do not put any labels identifying it as coming from Tichbourne Knives but instead simply put my name and address in the top left corner. On the customs slip I identify the contents as cutlery, and I insure the contents for the selling price because that is what I am out of pocket if the package goes missing. Oh yes I always identify the knife with a sticker indicating "Made in Canada", not doing so can cause delays while country of manufacture is determined for the free trade treaty purposes. Coming from the US use a Made in USA sticker.

To date only one of the knives that I have shipped to the US has been opened by customs to my knowledge and only one incoming package has had customs inspection tape on it, no a bad average.



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george
www.tichbourneknives.com
sales@tichbourneknives.com

 
HJK. Thanks for the lesson! I checked your profile and saw that you are a lawyer! No wonder you know your stuff! You really straightened out a few things for me. I do have one question for you, I hope it's not to dumb. You keep quoting sections and paragraphs from the criminal code. Where as a civilian can I pick up a copy of this. I recieve lots of knives in the mail and also carry daily, and if anything ever happened I'd love to be able to quote like you did to customs or police. I have heard from other's experience that most police officers aren't even fully fluent in the law when it comes to knives, and being able to politely inform them of the laws can get you out of trouble. Once again thanks!
 
Just head down to the UWO bookstore, or any other university bookstore, there you will find a selection of criminal codes, pocket criminal codes, and even books which have both the code as it is written and translations of each of the sections/subsections of the code into plain english, citing cases as well.
 
SharpCdn is right. There are all sorts of publications that have the Criminal Code and commentaries. The university/college bookstores usually carry good ones at good prices. You can also find them in just about every major bookstore.
Personally, I would suggest you buy a version that also includes the regulations. That's particularly important in the case of knives and "weapons" like shirugen and nunchuks, etc., because these are dealt with specifically in the regs and it is important to know what is and isn't in there.
Probably the best work on the subject, pound for pound and dollar for dollar, is Martin's Annual Criminal Code which is published by Canada Law Book and edited by Eddie Greenspan. Make sure you get the year 2000 edition. The book is not cheap: $79Can.
for the single volume hardcover edition, but you should be able to find it cheaper, and possibly in softcover, in the stores or at one of the student stores, like U of T, York U or Ryerson. The regs are set out after the relevent sections, there are crossreferences to related sections, the commentary is concise and expert and some of the leading cases are cited. Also, if you are going to refer to a text to prove a point`, Greenspan's book carries weight, although there are other more complete and autoritative books. By all means buy and read the code and the commentaries, but be very careful. Laws change quickly and quietly, the law is confusing even for lawyers, and law enforcement officers don't usually take well to legal debates in the field, even if you are 100% right.
 
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