CANNOT get Kiwi 3 sharp--possibly defective?

Stockhausen · Feb 1, 2013

Hi Bladeforums,

The subject says it all. I've been using a Sharpmaker to sharpen my knives, and it works well. My SAK, Spyderco Ambitious & Tenacious, Buck Stockman, and kitchen knives are all razor sharp. But the edge on my Kiwi sucks and I can't figure it out. All my other knives cut through paper like butter, but the Kiwi really has to power through it and paper cutting is jagged.

It's a shame because I love the design of the Kiwi and I don't want to give up on it. A scalpel-like stainless steel slipjoint combined with my Leatherman style sounds like a great dressed up EDC. But, if I can't get it razor sharp like every other knife I own, I'll probably end up giving it away to a friend who has no knife.

Also, if I have to invest in more sharpening equipment, I'd rather just stick with my other knives that have already proven themselves on the Sharpmaker (if it ain't broke, don't fix it, right?)

So, my real question is...is it always REALLY your technique, or is it possible sometimes to get a blade that's defective? I've considered sending it back to Spyderco, but if they send it back, it may not be worth the shipping costs on a $20 knife.

As far as my technique--I've watched the sharpmaker DVD and followed those directions. I've used one of the sharpmaker angles alone, or started with 30 and moved to 40. I've tried it using about 20 passes on each side, and also other times using about 50 on each side. No luck using a strop, either. I've tried using medium pressure and extra light pressure, all with the sharpie trick. Things that work for the other knives just don't seem to work for this one.

So, before I do something stupid like unnecessarily send it back to Spyderco or give away a dull knife, do y'all have any suggestions that don't involve investing in a loupe?

seelow123 · Feb 1, 2013

Welcome to the forums! I have a Kiwi 3 and it came with very obtuse edge bevels. I think yours may have the same problem. The best way to fix this is to reprofile the edge and thin it out but that could prove a bit difficult on a sharpmaker. You could try the brown stones in the 30 degree slot and try to reprofile that way but it will take a very long time. You can pick up some decent stones on the cheap from Lowes or someplace like that and do the reprofile job on those.

MadMullet · Feb 1, 2013

8Cr13Mov should be no issue to sharpen on the sharp maker. Ive never heard of "Bad Steel" from spyderco. Im guessing it might be a bad grind or a damaged edge. I would start with a coarse stone and work one side until you form wire edge. Then take the blade a drag it thrue a piece of softer wood like a 2x4 or 1 x sheathing to knock off the bur and start on the other side until you form a bur on that side. At that point you have re-profiled the edge. Then just finish it up using the finer rods like you normally do. You can feel the wire edge when it forms with your finger nail. Start with your finger nail at the top of the secondary bevel and gently and very carefully push you nail down the bevel towards the edge. Your finger nail will hang up on the bur if you have sharpened it to the point of forming a bur.

hardheart · Feb 1, 2013

Third recommendation to reprofile the edge. Even if the steel was 'bad', which it has a pretty low chance of being, it will get sharp.

flarp · Feb 1, 2013

Could be just a bad bevel from the factory needing to be re-profiled. If you have a set of diamond stones on your Sharpmaker, you might start there. Trying to re-profile with medium and fine stones can take forever. Or, check your local knife shops to see if they offer sharpening services. For something the size of the Kiwi, I can't imagine it would be more than a few bucks.

PGeo00 · Feb 1, 2013

I'm struggling with the same issue with my Kiwi. My thought was as recommended above... reprofile the edge. I will be using water stones.

Big Mike · Feb 1, 2013

Don't blame the maker for a knife you can't get sharp.

That's just like the guy who can't figure out how he damaged the blade yet knows it wasn't his fault.

What "Defect" do you suspect?

Even if Spyderco blew the Heat Treatment (not bloody likely), you would still be able to sharpen it.

I suggest you look into improving your own skills before pointing your finger at a well respected company.

Big Mike

timberweasel · Feb 1, 2013

Stockhausen said:
As far as my technique--I've watched the sharpmaker DVD and followed those directions. I've used one of the sharpmaker angles alone, or started with 30 and moved to 40. I've tried it using about 20 passes on each side, and also other times using about 50 on each side. No luck using a strop, either. I've tried using medium pressure and extra light pressure, all with the sharpie trick. Things that work for the other knives just don't seem to work for this one.

So, before I do something stupid like unnecessarily send it back to Spyderco or give away a dull knife, do y'all have any suggestions that don't involve investing in a loupe?

Welcome to the Forums, Stockhausen!

I really dig the Spyderco Kiwi 3 and haven't had any problems with mine. As others have mentioned, reprofiling the secondary bevel should help. It can be done on the stock Sharpmaker stones but it will take time and patience (maybe pick up some diamond sticks later on; it will certainly help speed things up.) Stop counting strokes and try to find the zen of the sharpening process... you'll get there! :thumbup:

Good luck!

-Timber

100eyes · Feb 1, 2013

I think the issue here is telling someone who uses "20 passes on a Sharpmaker" to re-profile their edge to be thinner.

This is why I always recommend people learn to sharpen on a regular flat stone; these "easy" systems usually fail to teach the basic fundamentals like actually looking at the edge.

Luis G. · Feb 1, 2013

100eyes said:
I think the issue here is telling someone who uses "20 passes on a Sharpmaker" to re-profile their edge to be thinner.

This is why I always recommend people learn to sharpen on a regular flat stone; these "easy" systems usually fail to teach the basic fundamentals like actually looking at the edge.

UHm the spyderco sharpmaker is the same thing as using a flat stone. Except the stone is angled, and sat up right.

Anyways, the OP sounds like he needs to reprofile his edge.

100eyes · Feb 1, 2013

Luis G. said:
UHm the spyderco sharpmaker is the same thing as using a flat stone. Except the stone is angled, and sat up right.

Anyways, the OP sounds like he needs to reprofile his edge.

Right. Now I want you to explain to the OP how he should do that on his Sharpmaker.

You can't, not without teaching him the basics of sharpening, which he'd (more likely) have known if he started with a non pre-angled system.

Luis G. · Feb 1, 2013

100eyes said:
Right. Now I want you to explain to the OP how he should do that on his Sharpmaker.

You can't, not without teaching him the basics of sharpening, which he'd (more likely) have known if he started with a non pre-angled system.

He would have to learn the basics whether on a spyderco, flat stone, belt sander, electric sharpener, edge pro, wicked edge, or breaking off the edges of obsidian stones with other rocks.

You don't innately know how to sharpen just because you bought flat stones.

HoosierQ · Feb 1, 2013

I love Spyderco and own a bunch of them. But despite what Sal says, the DO NOT all come with 30 degree inclusive bevels. I had one, repeat one of maybe 20 that appears to have...a Manix 2 XL.

In fact ALL the rest had inclusive bevels in excess of 40 degrees and thus the SharpMaker would be...and for me, was...ineffective. Not saying they were dull, they were not...they were just greater than 40.

For me, this is no big deal. They're all going to have to be sharpened some day and the SharpMaker is great tool for keeping knives sharp is used often enough. So I reprofiled all my Spydercos (save the one) as well as all my other knives too, to have about a 27.5 degree inclusive bevel. Then I can do a 30 or a 40 microbevel with the SharpMaker and all subsequent touch ups. Works great. Did all my ESEE knives this way too although the last few of them were spot on 40 and I did not need to reprofile. I did do a little back beveling on them.

I call this "indexing" to you SharpMaker. As long an your bevel is less than 40 or 30 degrees inclusive you'll be set...ideally less than 30 because then you'll have the choice of both halves.

hardheart · Feb 1, 2013

Stockhausen said:
As far as my technique--I've watched the sharpmaker DVD and followed those directions. I've used one of the sharpmaker angles alone, or started with 30 and moved to 40. I've tried it using about 20 passes on each side, and also other times using about 50 on each side. No luck using a strop, either. I've tried using medium pressure and extra light pressure, all with the sharpie trick. Things that work for the other knives just don't seem to work for this one.

I'll just hit on a couple things in this post as well. From the paper tearing, it sounds like the knife is dull. If the knife is duller than your others, then it will require more metal removal to restore sharpness. So I would stop using the strop. The strop would be used to refine a good edge, not to create one. You are only slowing yourself down by switching to the strop. You slow down when you are almost done. This also goes for the extra light pressure. This is for use when the edge is getting thin, with the edge radius well established and properly reduced. If your knife is still dull, you need sufficient abrasion to remove metal.

The sharpie should show you that you are matching the edge angle with the sharpmaker, so either you are not and don't see it, or you are and the two bevels are not meeting. You don't need a loupe to check if you can just turn the bade edge up and look to see if light is reflecting from the cutting edge.

If you need a coarser abrasive, you can wrap the sharpmaker stones in sandpaper, or you can get a silicon carbide or aluminum oxide stone for under ten dollars at a hardware/home improvement store.

Allen R. · Feb 1, 2013

click my sig line, he'll fix you right up and turn that kiwi into a scalpel

flarp · Feb 1, 2013

Regarding flat stones vs. Sharpmaker, I thought the Sharpmaker base had slots on the underside for mounting the triangle stones level to effectively give you a flat benchstone. If you want to try free-handing, that may be an option. From their product description:

http://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=77 said:
Turn the base over, a channel lets you lay two stones side-by-side (flat-side up) for use as a benchstone.

100eyes · Feb 1, 2013

Luis G. said:
He would have to learn the basics whether on a spyderco, flat stone, belt sander, electric sharpener, edge pro, wicked edge, or breaking off the edges of obsidian stones with other rocks.

You don't innately know how to sharpen just because you bought flat stones.

I specifically added "(more likely)" to imply that you wouldn't innately know.

My point is that a system like the Sharpmaker tries to circumvent the initial learning process by offering preset angles. Instead of observing the changes being made to the edge, these systems encourage blindly going through the motions a certain number of times. Depending on the steel, heat treat, factory edge angle, etc., you should know the same 20 passes per side at the same angle will have entirely different results.

Buying flat stones doesn't automatically teach you how to sharpen, but once you learn on them you realize systems like the Sharpmakers are largely useless and systems like Edge Pro or Wicked Edge offer better results to users already proficient in understanding of sharpening an edge.

yablanowitz · Feb 1, 2013

It does, but the brown rods are simply not coarse enough to hog off a lot of metal. My Kiwis have all had very thick edges, resulting in poor cutting performance even when they were shaving sharp. I took one to a belt sander and finally got it thinned down enough to cut, just before the backspring broke. Spyderco replaced the knife for free, but I'm back to the battleaxe edge.

100eyes · Feb 1, 2013

flarp said:
Regarding flat stones vs. Sharpmaker, I thought the Sharpmaker base had slots on the underside for mounting the triangle stones level to effectively give you a flat benchstone. If you want to try free-handing, that may be an option. From their product description:

Yeah I'm aware about that feature; the gap created between the two rods as they lay to make a flat stone is a great way to round off a pointy tip...

flarp · Feb 1, 2013

100eyes said:
Yeah I'm aware about that feature; the gap created between the two rods as they lay to make a flat stone is a great way to round off a pointy tip...

Ahhh... I've never used a Sharpmaker, so I didn't know. I was just looking for options for the OP that wouldn't involve much additional expense.