Can't get a decent edge on new knife - sharpening novice looking for advice

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venemous

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Apr 7, 2014
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Just bought a (stupidly named) CRKT SPEW as I wanted a small fixed blade on a currently very tight budget. Liked the look, size and the wharncliffe seems like it would be good for everyday stuff at home and the office. Also, I figured it would be an easy blade to learn to freehand sharpen on. I just can't get the thing to take an edge. I really want to get this one down before I tackle my "good" knives which are WAY overdue for a resharpening.

I'm new to sharpening and have recently picked up a smiths tri-hone and another cheap 2 sided stone from harbor freight. Also picked up wet/dry paper in 1000 and 1200 grits and a cheap 10x loupe. I've watched a bunch of videos on youtube and read a whole lot of tips and tricks all over the internet.

I've been practicing using the stones and a handful of cheap old knives I have laying around of various blade profiles and styles. I'm able to get a little super cheap (was $2 at a local asian grocer) very thin santoku style knife ungodly sharp. Was able to get a nice edge on most of a big, thick chinese folder; although the slight recurve on it is giving me a bit of a fit in a couple spots. Got an arm shaving edge on a little finnish skinner (might be carbon steel of some sort, no idea really, but it's got a patina to it) that I'd destroyed the edge on as a kid except for the tip which I'd snapped off... Going to try my hand at my CRKT M16-13T (AUS8 maybe?) next which I was able to get an "ok" edge on using the lansky style sharpener. Ultimately, I'd like to be able to get REALLY GOOD edges on my VG-10 Endura4 and my VG-10 chefs and santoku knives.

I want to blame the steel (5cr14 or something) since I know it's crappy, but I can't imagine it's any worse than the other cheapies I've been working with which are probably 420 or 440A. I've used a marker and seem to be able to hold a consistent angle, although I do have some trouble on 1 side of the blade. Need to find a way to get consistent strokes with the blade facing toward me or learn to hold the knife in my other hand to do that opposite edge.

I started on the medium stone on the tri-hone which is allegedly around 600 grit. Pushing edge first, using very little downward pressure on the blade. Worked up a burr, switched sides and used the same amount of strokes to try to keep the profile even. Then alternated strokes each way a few times to knock the burr down. Switched to the fine stone and did the exact same thing. Finished with a few alternating edge trailing strokes on the fine stone. Was then going to use the sandpaper, but it feels higher grit than the fine stone and didn't want to undo what I had done. It was sharper than out of the box, but still won't cleanly slice printer paper or shave arm hairs. The edge doesn't look BAD to me under the loupe but nowhere near as nice as most of the pics I see here.

Edited to add: I believe I'm sharpening at about a 20 degree angle per side. It's just slightly shallower than the angle guide that came with the tri hone which purports to be 23 degrees.

TL:DR version. I'm new at sharpening, I THINK my technique is decent, can't get a specific knife sharp and don't want to screw up the edges on my good knives. Help please.
 
Sharp maker.

At least till your free hand gets better.
 
I was going to say that I thought the geometry of your SPEW might be the problem, as in it might be extra thick, or curved sharply, both of which make a paper slicing edge harder to achieve. But it looks thin-ish and it's definitely very straight being a wharncliffe.

My next guess is either:

A) You haven't worked up a full length burr on both sides. You might be missing a portion of the edge, most likely at the front or the back, but it could be anywhere. This has to happen on both sides or it still won't get sharp.
B) You've ground in a burr on both sides, but you haven't removed the burr fully. This would make it snag in paper.
C) Your angle control isn't very consistent and you rounded off the edge on the fine stone.

Hint: Your edge should fairly cleanly slice printer paper off of the coarse stone. Most of my blades will cleanly (if loudly) slice phonebook paper from a relatively coarse stone. If your blade passes on this, then it's probably C. If not, it's A or B, or something I haven't thought of. :)

The good news is, you've already had good success with easy blade shapes. The Santoku is very easy comparatively speaking, but it *does* require sharpening skill. So you're demonstrating that you *do* have skill already. Build on that success and you'll get that new blade to the level you want it. Like anything else, sometimes you just have to walk away for a while, let your mind clear and approach it fresh another time.

Good luck and post back any questions or results you have!

Brian.
 
20 degrees per side is a bit thick. You will see a big improvement if you can thin it down to 15 or so per side. Keep the pressure light and with that steel you could certainly finish off by stropping on some newspaper or similar.

After working up the initial burr, make sure it flips sides - don't just count passes on the opposite side. No harm in keeping a rough tally of how much time/passes you're making, but visually verify what you think is happening.
 
Get a sharpie and mark the edge to check if you are near the apex sharpening. If I missed you doing that, apologies. I can also suggest physically checking for a burr with edge trailing strokes on your finger (with no pressure, you can feel a burr easily if it is there).

I feel the pain of sharpening seeming to make no progress, we all start that way. Trust me, it isn't the knife, the edges just come with patience. Be mad when you sharpen a knife for about 5 hours only to find out that you could have done better in under an hour with your belt sander because you screwed up the angles by hand.
 
one thing to look at is if you are getting a nice flat bevel, or if you are getting a more rounded bevel. The sharpie trick helps with this. If one pass takes off all the sharpie, then you are in the right track. Otherwise there might be a subtle change in what you are doing, causing you to either not get to the edge with every pass, or your actual edge is thicker than you were planning. One cause of this can be an out of flat stone. they don't need to be perfect, but if the dish is biased to one end, that can cause a problem. Do you flip your stones often?
One other problem I've run into with softer steels when I was learning, was building up too much of a burr. Then instead of abrading the burr off, I would inadvertently be very carefully aligning it, meaning that any mistake or use then broke off the burr, leaving a dull edge. I try to avoid raising a burr now, and that has helped. If I feel that a fine stone is raising a burr very easily, I either do not use that stone with that knife, or I refresh that stone to get better cutting. A fine loaded stone can act like a burnishing steel which is not helpful to what you are doing.

Hope this helps. Free-hand takes a fair amount of work to get figured out, and there are as many methods as there are guys who do it. But its a worthwhile skill.
 
I apologize in advance for the wall of text below. Trying to work though this logically and it seems I have quite a few thoughts/observations and questions… I greatly appreciate the feedback so far. You guys are awesome.

Cannot afford a sharp maker or grinder/paper wheels at this time and truly would like to learn to sharpen freehand. I believe that I can learn to get good results with the tools I have at hand. I expect a learning curve and am not looking for instant perfection.

Worked on this again last night a bit. I was paying closer attention to what I was doing and had a buddy watching as well. I was able to get a little better edge than I had previously, but still nowhere near what I would call “good”. I think I’ve identified the largest parts of my problem and I’m pretty sure they are related.
1. I believe that I’m not working up an even burr along the entirety of the edge. Specifically, I’m not feeling it near the tip of the blade. I’m trying to cover the whole blade in 1 stroke and I think my angle is changing as I draw the blade toward the side to reach the tip.
2. Angle control overall – I had previously thought that I was staying pretty consistent, but my friend who was watching from the side said that it looked to him like the angle was changing a bit during my stroke.
3. I verified using a marker that I’m rounding the bevel a little bit. Takes me 2-3 strokes to remove the marker in any given spot. I’m definitely rounding it off a bit particularly at the tip and almost along the entirety of the blade when I change sides to stroke with the edge facing me. My stones are brand new and appear to be very level with no dishing.

What I think I need to do (please correct me or add advice/tips/tricks):
1. Obviously keep practicing. I understand the concept of muscle memory and ingraining specific motions. I am sort of concerned that I’m ingraining bad habits, but I can always fix that as I go.
2. Figure out how to work both sides of the blade consistently. One side is certainly MUCH easier for me to work than the other.
3. Work the blade in sections. If I’m pushing the blade straight toward the end of the stone and not drawing it to the side to cover the entire edge in 1 stroke I seem to keep a more consistent angle. The santoku I got a good edge on had an edge that was almost exactly the same size as the stone so I was using straight motions.
4. Try working without raising a burr on the softer steels.
5. I’m going to try to decrease the angle. I wasn’t sure if the steel would support an edge that thin, but I suppose the only way to find out is to try.

Additional questions:
1. Should I be grinding edge first or edge trailing at different points in the process?
2. Should I be using a single direction per stroke and lifting the blade off the end of the stone or bringing the blade back down the stone in the opposite direction?
3. How much oil should be on the stones? Should it be puddled on the top or is a “moist” surface sufficient? What sorts of oil are OK to use on my stones? That stone sucked up the entire bottle of the oil that came with the kit and was still dry to the touch.
4. Once I get the SPEW where I’d like it, my Endura 4 is next. Is there anything I’ll need to know with the VG-10 other than it’s a harder steel and will take a bit longer to sharpen? I am debating taking it to a slightly more acute angle than factory. It’s an older Endura and doesn’t have the FFG if that matters.
5. My ultimate goal is to be able to put and maintain very sharp working edges on my kitchen knives. They are a VG-10 core clad in Damascus (the Tramotina set that was briefly sold at Sams). They appear to have a convex edge. Will I need to change to a different technique so as not to completely screw up the edge?
 
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For oil, if you haven't used oil on your stones yet, don't. Use water. Once you oil them there is no going back, but water is easily stopped (and free). You can easily just find a small pan to sharpen in for a water reservoir. For me on stones if I am working on a low grit stone I do a kind of reciprocating action and work into a sweeping edge trailing stroke once I get into other grits. Works most of the time.
 
venemous said:
1. Should I be grinding edge first or edge trailing at different points in the process?

2. Should I be using a single direction per stroke and lifting the blade off the end of the stone or bringing the blade back down the stone in the opposite direction?
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I would go with a "scrubbing" fore and aft motion. Once you have a small bur and flipped it once, switch to a very light leading stroke to remove it.

If working on waterstones or sandpaper, finish with a few very light trailing strokes.

On an oil stone you can wrap a sheet of writing, copy, or newspaper around the same stone and strop (trailing stroke, moderate pressure) to finish it off. This will also reveal any small burrs that escaped the initial removal attempt - is very common for a few to turn up following a stropping on paper.



venemous said:
3. How much oil should be on the stones? Should it be puddled on the top or is a “moist” surface sufficient? What sorts of oil are OK to use on my stones? That stone sucked up the entire bottle of the oil that came with the kit and was still dry to the touch.
Click to expand...

It helps sometimes to work a thin amount of petroleum jelly into the stone, then a few drops of mineral oil (pharmacy grade is fine)to work with. I like to have a puddle, enough oil that the debris is floated. This doesn't work well with long passes, you'll just push all the oil off. Another reason to use a short scrub. Also, reducing the distance your hands are traveling on the stone will reduce the amount of corrections your joints will have to make to keep the angle steady. Fore and aft with a short distance at least till you get a better feel for things. As you get down to removing the burr, the surface can be allowed to dry up a bit - keeping it wet is only important when you're still grinding steel. Using oil will keep the stone surface in best condition, prevents glazing and plugging most effectively.

Ultimately you will want to use tactile feedback on the stone to guide your angle control, pay attention to how it feels running across the stone. Place your off hand finger tips directly on the blade just above the edge and move them or slide them so they stay where you're making contact with the stone surface. Work in overlapping sections and as a burr begins to form discontinue work in those spots. Flip and repeat. You want to raise a continuous but small and uniform burr the entire length of the edge. Remove it by using a short, light, leading stroke, again working in sections. Stop as it disappears and only work the spots where it still needs work.

Observe often, verify with your eyes that the edge is grinding down where you expect it to grind down. Believe your eyes. The burr can be seen and felt, rub the fingers across the edge from spine to apex, you'll feel it standing up. When I'm grinding away, I stop often (almost compulsively) and "wipe" the edge with my fingertips to feel for a burr all along the edge. When you've removed enough of it that its too small to feel, start wiping off the oil with a rag and observe visually - use strong overhead lighting if possible.

There are a bunch of videos on the sale thread linked through my signature. Even if you have no interest in buying one of my sharpening blocks, the videos contain a lot of content that applies to all manner of freehand sharpening - just skip the first video which deals mostly with the specifics of the Washboard. The are links to a copy of the user's manual as well, has plenty of good tips for the beginner (and experienced, depending). Also, watch Murray Carter videos and note how he holds his angles. Knifenut has many good videos under the "Mr Edgy" name on youtube, and I have a few more under "Neuman 2010", some of them using oil stones.

Be critical of your mechanics - shortening the stroke and using the off hand fingers right on top of the contact point will help a lot to reduce slop in your angle control. Use the lightest pressure you can manage and still have good contact with the stone, "listen" with your fingertips - good interpretation of tactile feedback is the key to good freehand edges.

Edit to add:
If working with sandpaper, clean it often with an eraser. Whatever surface you're grinding with, pay attention to how dirty its getting and take steps to clean it off, whatever is appropriate for the surface. A beat up grinding surface can be tough for a beginner to diagnose, but can cause a lot of trouble with your efforts.
 
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HeavyHanded said:
awesome information
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HeavyHanded- Thank you. I think this will help me. I appreciate the time I'm sure it took to write that.

Just a few more easy questions (for now...). How will I know if the stones need to be cleaned? I assume they will start to feel glazed as the pores fill in? What is the best way to clean the stones? More oil and a stiff nylon brush?
 
A slightly different perspective on things, and not at all to disagree with HeavyHanded, I just do things a bit different.

Depending on the blade, I may or may not try for a single stroke. It all depends on if I feel that I am still getting good contact at the tip. Often the greater the angle of the tip compared to the belly, the harder this is (make sense?) Breaking the blade up into tangent sections can make your life much easier.

One side or direction is often easier than the other. All of my knives eventually look a bit different side to side. It doesn't worry me that much. Are you going front to back with your stone, or left to right? I find that for bench stones, it sometimes helps to turn the stone 90 depending on how the strokes are going. It comes with practice.

I use sound as much as feel for feedback, does it sound like its scraping and cutting, or sliding. The loudest is when you only have the edge touching, and quietest will be when the back of the bevel is all thats contacting. Again, this is a practice thing, and everyone has a bit of a different feel for it. I'm still learning, as long as I've been doing this, and I still screw things up.

Oil stones. Yes they suck up a lot of oil. You can use almost anything, the cheapest is mineral oil (get the stuff with no fragrance) But I've used 3-in-1 and others. Don't use Smiths fluid, its more for ceramics, and is pretty much soap, so not helpful on your stone. As for how much? you don't need to be making a mess dripping every were, add a bit of oil, wipe it off with a rag or paper towel, gently to remove any swarf you can. It pretty hard to load a stone, it more happens if the oil is old, or gets contaminated and tacky. You will be able to tell by the color changing, and the feel. Its not that big of a deal to fix on most stones. You want the stone to be oily enough to let the swarf go, and to keep the swarf from rusting, as that will lock it into the pores. But again, I don't think you need a puddle. For cleaning, you can do a few things, a quick scrub with a bit of sand-paper, or steel wool, lots of oil. Its easier to prevent than fix, but again, I've only seen it on really old stones with gooey oil in them.

Leading edge or following.... Thats a horses for courses sort of thing. If it works for you, and you can keep even that way, no problem. If not, then don't. Some blades are easy to do that with, some not. You will raise more of a burr with a trailing edge, so it might not be the best for some steels, as well as some stones.

As far as VG-10 I've not used it, most of my knives are 1095. But I've found with harder steels, the feedback can be quite a bit less. So the harder part is not the more work, but that the blade seems to glide more. I've found on a couple stainless knives that I got more traction on "sharper" abrasives, which for me was a finer stone.
For your damascus knives, when you get there, you will be probably just putting your own bevel and edge on them. how acute is up to you, but I wouldn't worry about it too much. I don't know how thick they are, so I don't know what kind of edge you would end up with, but by the time you get the SPEW and Endura where you want them, I'm sure you'll have an idea of how to tackle them.

One thing to think about, consider, ponder on. Micro bevels. especially if you try more acute angles, if you find the edge not holding up, or you find that you are getting a good clean bevel, but the edge just isn't there. a couple very very gentle passes on the finest stone you want the edge to be, might get you to where you want to be. This can also screw you, and put you back to re-beveling. But something to read up on and think about. But get your technique down to where you know your bevel is good. removing the marker free hand in only a couple passes is not bad.
 
venemous said:
HeavyHanded- Thank you. I think this will help me. I appreciate the time I'm sure it took to write that.

Just a few more easy questions (for now...). How will I know if the stones need to be cleaned? I assume they will start to feel glazed as the pores fill in? What is the best way to clean the stones? More oil and a stiff nylon brush?
Click to expand...

When the stones are completely dry (more or less) hold them at a shallow angle to some light (kind of sight along the top) and get a good look at how the surface appears. If you see a change in the surface appearance in the higher use areas there's a good chance the stone is getting glazed. Most of the time you can fix a beat up stone by simply using with oil and grinding using the entire surface - Murray Carter among others uses a similar theory to keep his waterstones flat, and I strongly advocate using this as well, not only to keep the stone flat, but to spread wear and debris as evenly on the surface as possible, and on all grinding surfaces, be it diamond plates, sandpaper, oil stones etc. This will keep the entire surface in even shape and maximizes the amount of debris that can be allowed to build up on the surface while working.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_InT88SR19w

Sometimes it helps to lap them on a smooth concrete sidewalk - use lots of water and rub it in a figure 8. If the stone releases a bunch of grit as it goes, you can repair it by using it with oil. At the end of a session, add a bit more oil to the surface and let it set for a few minutes undisturbed, then agitate with a fingertip to lift all the debris out of the nooks and wipe with a rag or paper towel.

I am a real stickler/fanatic for keeping the surface of my stones etc in good shape - it makes a big difference in how cleanly the abrasive can remove steel and with how much pressure. If the stone(s) are pretty new, they might still be a bit glazed from the surface finishing they received at the factory, but if you keep using them with oil they should come around on their own and/or be fine as is.

Martin
 
venemous said:
2. Figure out how to work both sides of the blade consistently. One side is certainly MUCH easier for me to work than the other.
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Have you tried the mirror image technique? I.E. sharpen one side of the blade with the handle in your right hand, and the other side of the blade with the handle in your left hand. This promotes a consistent sight picture of the blade. The motions are also "the same" they are just flipped from one hand to the other. You might be surprised how easily your brain can do this "flip" to mirror the motions of your right hand to your left. It's pretty much all I do any more when sharpening.

3. Work the blade in sections. If I’m pushing the blade straight toward the end of the stone and not drawing it to the side to cover the entire edge in 1 stroke I seem to keep a more consistent angle. The santoku I got a good edge on had an edge that was almost exactly the same size as the stone so I was using straight motions.
Click to expand...

You touched on using smaller motions. Working in smaller sections and using smaller motions can be powerful tools to staying consistent. I also find that isolating my joints as much as possible is helpful. Try to keep your wrists nearly locked. They shouldn't move much at all. Your elbows and shoulders can be isolated too. What the heck is left to move with??? Your torso. Try rocking your body forward and back and keeping your arms *mostly* in the same position. Your shoulder and elbow joints will naturally move some. Don't fight them. Just try to minimize motion of the arms. Try it. I find it works quite well.

4. Try working without raising a burr on the softer steels.
5. I’m going to try to decrease the angle. I wasn’t sure if the steel would support an edge that thin, but I suppose the only way to find out is to try.
Click to expand...

For both of these, I'd say don't try that yet. Stick to one thing at a time. Both of those things are a different skill set than you have been practicing IMHO. Get some blades *nice* and hair popping sharp, then move to new techniques.

Additional questions:
2. Should I be using a single direction per stroke and lifting the blade off the end of the stone or bringing the blade back down the stone in the opposite direction?
Click to expand...

I don't think it's all that important either way. Though, come to think of it, *I* am more consistent when I keep the blade in contact with the stone both forward and backwards. There is disagreement on which direction you should exert the downward grinding force. I do it moving away from me. Others insist it should only be done edge trailing. <shrug>

A few other things, at least one of which was already mentioned by HH:

1. Do try using both hands with the fingers of your "off" hand pressing down on the edge where it meets the stone. You will not believe how well this works. Especially how well it will let you feel when the bevel is flat on the stone. The blade will almost seem to "click" into place when you do this correctly. "Walk" or shift your fingers down the blade to work on each section of the blade. Your off hand downward force will actually concentrate the grinding to exactly where your fingers are. This gives you even more control.
2. Don't be afraid to grind more in one area than in another. When the burr starts to form in one area, but not in others, work mostly on the areas where the burr hasn't formed yet. Most blades do NOT dull evenly, as most people don't use the whole blade evenly. So you'll naturally need to grind more on the areas that are more blunt.

This is probably already too much so I'll end here. Good luck and keep us posted!

Brian.
 
Well, didn't get a chance to look at this thread yesterday. Friday night I gave a go at the spew. Was able to get it arm shaving in about 20 minutes. Will work on it more as I find the time. I didn't spend as much time as i felt I should on the fine stone, could still see larger scratches. However, I feel like I'm on the right track. Found a way to hold the blàde and changed where I sit in relation to the stone that let me keep a better angle and really minimized extra movement. Pretty much only my upper body is moving now, not using my hands/arms to do the work feels like it sort of locks in.

I'm going to keep messing around, make 1 small change at a time and I'm sure I'll find what works best for me.

I'll probably re read the advice here a thousand more times. This thread has been amazingly helpful to a novice. You guys are an incredible font of knowledge and I really appreciate it. Your advice has already made me 10 times better at this than I was a couple days ago. Someone should really put all this advice into a stickied sharpening for dummies/ FAQ thread :-)

Going to take a go at my endura tonight or tomorrow at the factory angle. I think I'm confident enough to try it now. I can't wait to see whats kind of edge I can get on a much better steel!
 
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