carbon fiber scales

[Yonose]

Spyderco’s carbon fiber layer on their Millies is about half the thickness of the scale. ZT’s scales are solid carbon fiber. The rat1 is a thinner layer of cf than spyderco uses. Since even the layer of g10 underneath has to be imported to Taiwan, I’m guessing the best value is on the nylon or plastic handled rat1 and rat2. And, obviously the d2 is a better blade and value imo.

 

[Mo2]

Spyderco’s carbon fiber layer on their Millies

spyderco domino uses a layer of cf the rest g10. my militaries both have full carbon fiber scales no g10 at all. not sure which one you have that is half and half.

 

[Yonose]

spyderco domino uses a layer of cf the rest g10. my militaries both have full carbon fiber scales no g10 at all. not sure which one you have that is half and half.

KW exclusive, s90v ti/cf. I could be wrong, but there looks to be 2 different layers on the cf side. Same with my zt 0562cf. Unlike my zT 0804cf, which is indesputably one solid piece. Which millie of yours is solid cf?
If I’m wrong I’d be very happy to know this!

 

[Mo2]

KW exclusive, s90v ti/cf. I could be wrong, but there looks to be 2 different layers on the cf side. Same with my zt 0562cf. Unlike my zT 0804cf, which is indesputably one solid piece. Which millie of yours is solid cf?
If I’m wrong I’d be very happy to know this!

I have the same Millie and its 100% carbon fiber with peel ply texture on the show side. it is different from zt's cf for sure.

 

[Yonose]

I have the same Millie and its 100% carbon fiber with peel ply texture on the show side. it is different from zt's cf for sure.

So it is 100% carbon fiber, just different texture? I always thought “peel ply” referred to the process of overlaying cf on top of a g10 layer. Thanks for the correction!

 

[Mo2]

So it is 100% carbon fiber, just different texture? I always thought “peel ply” referred to the process of overlaying cf on top of a g10 layer. Thanks for the correction!

sorry peel ply is not that. it is just the texture on any laminated composite. so you can have peel ply on cf, g10, or anything else. it was misunderstood in its introduction and spread by word of mouth.

basically to get peel ply you add a fabric with tiny holes in it on the top layer of your composite. the epoxy seeps through these holes when its vacuum bagged. when this sheet is pulled off after its cured it leaves the texture you feel. this can be sanded down to get a glossy or matte finish (depending on grit).

 

[Yonose]

sorry peel ply is not that. it is just the texture on any laminated composite. so you can have peel ply on cf, g10, or anything else. it was misunderstood in its introduction and spread by word of mouth.

basically to get peel ply you add a fabric with tiny holes in it on the top layer of your composite. the epoxy seeps through these holes when its vacuum bagged. when this sheet is pulled off after its cured it leaves the texture you feel. this can be sanded down to get a glossy or matte finish (depending on grit).

I just checked my KW millie and feel foolish for allowing that misunderstanding to affect my perception of said knife handle. It is in fact one piece, as you said. I noticed that the KW CT’s-204p model with green g10 handles are also described as peel ply. Would you say That the quality of the carbon fiber spyderco uses on its millies is inferior to the quality ZT uses on its solid cf handles? I notice there is a more wavy pattern shown as in the pics you posted on the ZT knives (at the edges) I have, whereas it’s less noticeable on the Military.

 

[Mo2]

I just checked my KW millie and feel foolish for allowing that misunderstanding to affect my perception of said knife handle. It is in fact one piece, as you said. I noticed that the KW CT’s-204p model with green g10 handles are also described as peel ply. Would you say That the quality of the carbon fiber spyderco uses on its millies is inferior to the quality ZT uses on its solid cf handles? I notice there is a more wavy pattern shown as in the pics you posted on the ZT knives (at the edges) I have, whereas it’s less noticeable on the Military.

I wouldn't really call it inferior, but the zt stuff is top of the line. i believe its also made a bit different. but I wouldn't really worry about it. spyderco have some cf on other models that is closer to what zt uses.

 

[Yonose]

I wouldn't really call it inferior, but the zt stuff is top of the line. i believe its also made a bit different. but I wouldn't really worry about it. spyderco have some cf on other models that is closer to what zt uses.

No doubt on one of their Taiwan made knives. The Okc rats in d2 are probably the best, dollar for dollar, folders sold right now in the world. The D2 they use is sourced from Germany, and functions almost like a “supersteel” as far as edge retention goes. For $33-38! I don’t own any of spyderco’s Taiwan made folders; I had a K2 in my cart a year ago for about $179 from KC or BHQ and though I checked out as fast as I could, it was gone before my card had cleared. I am sure they are excellent. I usually consider only US made folders in general, except for Japanese spyderco sprints. The only folding knife purchase I’m considering for the near future is a KW exclusive benchmade in m390.

 

[Mo2]

Would you say That the quality of the carbon fiber spyderco uses on its millies is inferior to the quality ZT uses on its solid cf handles? I notice there is a more wavy pattern shown as in the pics you posted on the ZT knives (at the edges) I have, whereas it’s less noticeable on the Military.

you can see some of the scales are more dense than others. more wavy lines means there is more layers. the tighter packed with more layers the better. anyways, the spyderco CF is more dense and smaller weave with more layers for the thinner thickness. it will be a bit stronger in construction. the ZT's are using a wider weave and less layers but is of great quality too. just made different but with great quality.

look at the marbled carbon fiber and the lionsteel TM1, you can clearly see voids in them. for shred and marbled carbon fiber, there is very little that can be done to avoid the voids, though some places are trying to reduce voids in this type of material. custom makers normally use super glue or epoxy mixed with carbon fiber dust to hide voids.

the ZT 0850 is using a different material for the blue weave. its either colored fiberglass or micarta.

ZT 0804CF

Chris Reeves Large Sebenza 21 Knifeart edition Carbon Fiber

Brouse Silent Soldier frame lock flipper limited edition

ZT 0850

Spyderco PM2 M4/CF Knifeworks exclusive

LionSteel TM1 CF

Spyderco Military s90v/r.i.l./cf Knifeworks exclusive

 

[Mo2]

Marifone custom CF Anax

Custom Knife Factory Sohkoi 2.0

Benchmade 940-1

Three Rivers Manufacturing BT1000CF

ZT 0562CF

Reate Horizon-D CF

ZT 0801BRZ with custom marble carbon fiber scale

 

[Yonose]

I’m gonna guess that for the weight savings it’s as tough as it gets, but probably nowhere near as tough as the titanium. The thin layer of oxidation that forms on titanium will protect it for many, many years, but as far as resisting impact the advantage is still on titanium, though maybe not for long!

 

[Mo2]

I’m gonna guess that for the weight savings it’s as tough as it gets, but probably nowhere near as tough as the titanium. The thin layer of oxidation that forms on titanium will protect it for many, many years, but as far as resisting impact the advantage is still on titanium, though maybe not for long!

Titanium is certainly going to be better for being tough. say you were going to shoot a bullet at it, the ti would stand up to the bullet than the CF would.

depending on how its made some carbon fiber would shatter if it was dropped on a hard surface. this really depends on all sorts of factors though. take for instance the lion steel with all the voids, that would have more points of failure than the zt or spyderco stuff.

of course the titanium is very springy an a dense metal. it will likely be no issue ever, though if it were too thin the ti could snap in half (or snap with a few bends, where as a thin piece of cf will only snap if it goes past its breaking point, but will be very flexible under its breaking point. CF is not work hardening like ti is (tho it really does depend on how the thinner cf was made, its highly irregular and varies composite to composite). different methods of making cf will result with different characteristics. as well as the resin to carbon ratio.

a composite used for a boats sail will likely require lots of flex, else it could snap from the forces of the wind and sail. so they use a method called wet layup. another method is prepreg autoclave which a majority of high end carbon fiber production uses. very stiff and dense material, with much more idea ratio of carbon and epoxy. its put into a pressurized and heated oven called an autoclave. while very stiff this method is very strong but has a lower breaking point than wet layup if pushed past the breaking point it will snap. so not idea for excessive flex. a 100 ton press can also be used for either method of layup, this helps compress the layers and remove excess epoxy. There are so many methods of cf production though.

for a pocket knife i dont think any of this matters. the only thing that most people would have happen to a knife like these is, drop it on dense floor, car runs over it.

 

[evilgreg]

Spyderco has used a wide range of different CF materials, some of them very nice looking, IMO. For example, this goofy knife has gorgeous polished CF (hard to capture in photos, but it's really very well done):

 

[Yonose]

Titanium is certainly going to be better for being tough. say you were going to shoot a bullet at it, the ti would stand up to the bullet than the CF would.

depending on how its made some carbon fiber would shatter if it was dropped on a hard surface. this really depends on all sorts of factors though. take for instance the lion steel with all the voids, that would have more points of failure than the zt or spyderco stuff.

of course the titanium is very springy an a dense metal. it will likely be no issue ever, though if it were too thin the ti could snap in half (or snap with a few bends, where as a thin piece of cf will only snap if it goes past its breaking point, but will be very flexible under its breaking point. CF is not work hardening like ti is (tho it really does depend on how the thinner cf was made, its highly irregular and varies composite to composite). different methods of making cf will result with different characteristics. as well as the resin to carbon ratio.

a composite used for a boats sail will likely require lots of flex, else it could snap from the forces of the wind and sail. so they use a method called wet layup. another method is prepreg autoclave which a majority of high end carbon fiber production uses. very stiff and dense material, with much more idea ratio of carbon and epoxy. its put into a pressurized and heated oven called an autoclave. while very stiff this method is very strong but has a lower breaking point than wet layup if pushed past the breaking point it will snap. so not idea for excessive flex. a 100 ton press can also be used for either method of layup, this helps compress the layers and remove excess epoxy. There are so many methods of cf production though.

for a pocket knife i dont think any of this matters. the only thing that most people would have happen to a knife like these is, drop it on dense floor, car runs over it.

I believe I have seen pics somewhere of one of the ZT models with a chipped out section on the cf. Could have been the result of someone taking the expression “overbuilt” too literally or maybe just a factory defect. There are other tragic occurrences that frequently happen to folders, is being run over by a lawnmower, dropped into a compacter, etc. which just can’t be helped by design changes.

 

[Mo2]

I believe I have seen pics somewhere of one of the ZT models with a chipped out section on the cf. Could have been the result of someone taking the expression “overbuilt” too literally or maybe just a factory defect.

lol yea, no doubt. but yea, carbon fiber is not impervious to damage. but its not weak either.
if you want a structure that is less likely to be damaged, metal or titanium would be idea. i generally only cut things with my knives, not use them as a basket ball.


also Oxidation is an enemy of carbon fiber. as well as acetone. sunlight/uv rays are not so nice to it either.

 

[Mo2]

Spyderco has used a wide range of different CF materials, some of them very nice looking, IMO. For example, this goofy knife has gorgeous polished CF (hard to capture in photos, but it's really very well done):

That used to be a grail of mine, such an amazing work of art. the polishing on the carbon fiber looks amazing.

 

[wayoftread]

 

[wayoftread]

Lion steel Roundhead white carbon fiber looks awsome.

 

[evilgreg]

That used to be a grail of mine, such an amazing work of art. the polishing on the carbon fiber looks amazing.

I've had terrible luck getting my crude snapshots to show off just how pretty it is, but IMO it's one of the prettiest sculpted polished CF handles in my collection. It's so shiny in person that it almost looks wet. Here's another shot:

I think it's so pretty that I can't bring myself to get rid of it, even though I rarely carry it. It's a bit chunky for my tastes but I think it's here to stay.

Spyderco never produced my suggested XL version, but if they did I think I'd buy that one too (unless it was hilariously overpriced like the Paysan):