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Carbon Steels
- Thread starter Walt2
- Start date
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2002
- Messages
- 1,419
Love carbon steels. Please remember that a superior heat treat will beat a superior steel anytime.
There are 2 things to consider that is less complicated in carbon steels compared with stainless steels.
High carbon = better edge retention = more brittle (more or less)
Lower carbon = the opposite.
Addition of other elements - moly, vanadium, chrome = better edge retention + possibly improved toughness.
BUT again it boils down to the heat treat to exploit the elements in the steel.
A-2, 52100 and O-1 I consider to have similar edge holding, but for toughness A-2 is best, followed by O-1 and 52100. Ed Fowler has been working on 52100 for yonks and has come up with a specialised heat treating regime that seems to get the best from it, from his own reports and what his customers have said. Triple anneal, triple quench, triple temper etc. His testing statistics produce some awesome edgeholding descriptions.
Elementally
A-2 is high carbon (1%) and medium chrome (5%)only,
52100 is high carbon (1%)and lower chrome only (1%) ,
O-1 is high carbon (1%) and even lower chrome (0.5%)but with vanadium, tungsten also.
1095 and 1084 are very similar steels given that most manufactureres quote tolerances of up to 0.5% for carbon contents in their processes. Both are high carbon (0.9%, 0.8% respectively) with little else. Edge holding is very good with typical carbon steel edge qualities I love so much, but they tend to hold an edge only 60-75% as well as those above.
5160 is effectively a spring steel - medium carbon (0.6%) and a little chrome (0.5%) only. You'd expect it to hold an edge less well. Thats partially true, and the steel is very tough and ideal for large choppers / whackers like bush knives and camp steel.
Interestingly, 5160 also responds well to the more complex (drawn out but can be done at home)heat treatment processes - triple anneal, triple harden, triple temper to produce edge holding equal to or even superior to 1084 / 1095. The small amount of chrome has a lot to do with it.
Also, on both sides of the toughness vs. edge holding question is that A-2 when hat treated well, has equivalent toughness to 5160. (5160 is still a bit more springier.)It seems like the combination of high carbon, medium chrome, is equivalent to medium carbon, little chrome.
NB.- A-2 needs to be air hardened / vacuum heat treated. The others can be oil hardened / forge heat treated.
Don't forget L-6 carbon steel which has about 0.75% carbon and nickel - its a superb steel and is very tough. Edge holding is equivalent to 1084/1095.
Sorry to be long winded but I find this useful when considering the "hierachy" of steels.
My recommendations - if you want to do stock removal and simple heat treats - use precision ground O-1. If you want temper lines without etching using simple heat treating - use 1095/1084/L-6. If you want to outsource your heat treating or you are making a larger blade, like a sword but want superior edge holding, use A-2. On a similar knife but with your own heat treating, use L-6 or 5160.
If you want to do the full range - finely forge, multi-step heat treats - go for 52100. (Thats what I want to do.) And if making a much larger blade (>10inches) use 5160, and do the multistep heat treats.
I consider carbon steels superior for edge holding and sharpening than stainless steels and find them "purer" in the spiritual sense of knives as working tools. Because even the most complicated heat treat is still a do-at-home prospect, the overall cost, continuity and fun factor also is increased.
Good luck. Gee, this was a long reply.
Cheers.
There are 2 things to consider that is less complicated in carbon steels compared with stainless steels.
High carbon = better edge retention = more brittle (more or less)
Lower carbon = the opposite.
Addition of other elements - moly, vanadium, chrome = better edge retention + possibly improved toughness.
BUT again it boils down to the heat treat to exploit the elements in the steel.
A-2, 52100 and O-1 I consider to have similar edge holding, but for toughness A-2 is best, followed by O-1 and 52100. Ed Fowler has been working on 52100 for yonks and has come up with a specialised heat treating regime that seems to get the best from it, from his own reports and what his customers have said. Triple anneal, triple quench, triple temper etc. His testing statistics produce some awesome edgeholding descriptions.
Elementally
A-2 is high carbon (1%) and medium chrome (5%)only,
52100 is high carbon (1%)and lower chrome only (1%) ,
O-1 is high carbon (1%) and even lower chrome (0.5%)but with vanadium, tungsten also.
1095 and 1084 are very similar steels given that most manufactureres quote tolerances of up to 0.5% for carbon contents in their processes. Both are high carbon (0.9%, 0.8% respectively) with little else. Edge holding is very good with typical carbon steel edge qualities I love so much, but they tend to hold an edge only 60-75% as well as those above.
5160 is effectively a spring steel - medium carbon (0.6%) and a little chrome (0.5%) only. You'd expect it to hold an edge less well. Thats partially true, and the steel is very tough and ideal for large choppers / whackers like bush knives and camp steel.
Interestingly, 5160 also responds well to the more complex (drawn out but can be done at home)heat treatment processes - triple anneal, triple harden, triple temper to produce edge holding equal to or even superior to 1084 / 1095. The small amount of chrome has a lot to do with it.
Also, on both sides of the toughness vs. edge holding question is that A-2 when hat treated well, has equivalent toughness to 5160. (5160 is still a bit more springier.)It seems like the combination of high carbon, medium chrome, is equivalent to medium carbon, little chrome.
NB.- A-2 needs to be air hardened / vacuum heat treated. The others can be oil hardened / forge heat treated.
Don't forget L-6 carbon steel which has about 0.75% carbon and nickel - its a superb steel and is very tough. Edge holding is equivalent to 1084/1095.
Sorry to be long winded but I find this useful when considering the "hierachy" of steels.
My recommendations - if you want to do stock removal and simple heat treats - use precision ground O-1. If you want temper lines without etching using simple heat treating - use 1095/1084/L-6. If you want to outsource your heat treating or you are making a larger blade, like a sword but want superior edge holding, use A-2. On a similar knife but with your own heat treating, use L-6 or 5160.
If you want to do the full range - finely forge, multi-step heat treats - go for 52100. (Thats what I want to do.) And if making a much larger blade (>10inches) use 5160, and do the multistep heat treats.
I consider carbon steels superior for edge holding and sharpening than stainless steels and find them "purer" in the spiritual sense of knives as working tools. Because even the most complicated heat treat is still a do-at-home prospect, the overall cost, continuity and fun factor also is increased.
Good luck. Gee, this was a long reply.
Cheers.