Carbon VS Stainless Steel

tarmix101

tarmix101

Joined
Jun 14, 2005
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I'm about to purchase a Grohmann knife kit for myself. I has hoping for a little advise. Between 4110 stainless and c70 carbon steel, which would be the best for all around use (camp chores, skinning, ext). Besides rusting, are there any draw backs to a carbon blade. Thanks for you help. :D
 
The only downside to a carbon steel blade is corrosion. Functionally this is a problem when the edge rusts because it quickly weakens and dulls the edge. You see this effect most if you cut fruit and don't wipe the edge or you leave your knife in a wet sheath. A carbon blade is generally tougher and easier to sharpen than a stainless blade. Here is a link to a test that shows differences between two stainless alloys and one that was not quite stainless, but otherwise a very high end carbon steel:
http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/knives/deerhunters.html

The carbon steel you are looking at won't hold an edge like D2 and the stainless won't hold an edge like VG-10, but the relative performance might be indicative. Look particularly at what happened with the corrosion test. You gotta ask yourself if you feel corrosive.
 
If you take reasonable care of your knife you'll only see advantages to using carbon steel over stainless steel.

BTW, so far the biggest trouble I've had with corrosion has been from an aus-8 CS Voyager, 425 Stainless steel in a Gerber Applegate combat folder, a Gerber river knife with some unknown Stainless steel, and lastly from a D2 puma folder.(D2 is the most stainless from the carbon steels).
And I take care of them equally.

So go figure!

I persoanlly would choose a carbon over stainless anyday.
 
Thanks to both of you for the response. BTW what would you say the main advantages to carbon vs stainless would be? :thumbup:
 
I find better toughness and edge holding, depending on the carbon steel and if it's been heat treated well.

Everybody seems to prefer something different. I've just always found carbon steels, even in production knives, to perform better than any of the stainless steels.
For yeas now I haven't bothered with SS anymore.

Good luck! Grohmann makes good knives, I doubt you'll have any problems with the steel either way.

edited to add: oh yeah, and I also find carbon steels are not only easier to sharpen, but they get sharper too.
 
Because of their finer grain structure, carbon steels are usually easier to resharpen than similarly abrasion-resistant stainless steels.

By the way, this is one of the frequently asked questions for which the search function provides more answers than a single thread could generate.

A few examples:

http://bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=340954

http://bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=346586

http://bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303158

http://bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263697

http://bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170183

http://bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117927

http://bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150808

http://bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162069
 
My carbon (1095) and stainless (D2, VG10, 420 and 440 variants) are about equal to sharpen. I find that this depends much more on how obtuse or blunt the edge is then the steel type.

Anyways, the greatest advantage of carbon steel is toughness (i.e. shock/chipping resistance).
 
Thank you all so much. I'm a VERY green knife maker as well as collector. I can see from the free flow of info I recieved on this subject..... I have found a good resource. Thanks again to all that replied.
 
If you get a chance to read "The Razor Edge Guide to Knife Sharpening" Book, you'll see that the author says that stainless is always superior. As his company primarily sells sharpening technologies to the big packing houses, he has run innumerable tests. He specifically talks about tests they did with professional butchers with similar knives, ground to the same edge but some carbon, some stainless. In every instance, the stainless outlasted and outperformed the carbon steel knives.

For those of you old enough to remember, people used to shave with Gillette Blue Blade Razor blades that I assume were carbon steel. You pretty much got one day per blade. Along came this British company named Sheffields that sold a Stainles Steel Blade, that back in our town, my dad could only buy at the local jewelry store and it was an extravagant purchase. Does anyone today shave with carbon blades? I don't think so nor do I know if you could even find them.
 
I've not read that book. I don't dispute the author in his findings for butchers, chefs or other food cutting. But did he talk to woodworkers? I ask because all of the good, high end woodworking tools are carbon steel. Two Cherries, Henry Taylor and Sorby brand carving tools are the best you can buy and they are all carbon steel. In woodworking, stainless steel is not found in the best plane blades. Or the best saws and chisels. My own experience as a whittler and woodcarver echoes that. I have yet to find a stainless steel the equal of carbon steel for use in wood.
 
I read the book and he never clearly says why he thinks stainless is better, plus what's better in a meat packing plant isn't the same as a home. The book was a disappointment. When it comes to shaving, of course stainless is needed because modern razors stay wet all day.

When it comes to Grohman, I'll tell you what the factory rep told me at the NRA national show. He said that the carbon steels blades are better performers. They take more abuse and hold an edge longer. They offer stainless at the request of their customers who want knives that don't stain and thus look better. So if you want your knife to be the best peformer, go for carbon. If you want your knife to perform but look good go for stainless.
 
brownshoe said:
I read the book and he never clearly says why he thinks stainless is better....
Click to expand...

Corrosion, Alvin Johnson saw the same thing when he made butchering knives out of 1095, they didn't do nearly as well as expected even though they were very hard, 66 HRC. However M2 at 65 HRC works very well though not stainless, it has enough corrosion resistance to prevent that being a significant source of blunting.

-Cliff
 
Tim, The reason that stainless razor blades replaced carbon steel razor blades was also because of corrosion. At the time it was well known that the carbon steel blades were sharper and tougher than the stainless, but corrosion degraded carbon steel edges extremely fast in razors. You could prevent that with the Gillete style razors by removing the blades and drying them after every shave. If you were really cheap they even made little crank-operated stropping machines for those blades. The cartridge style razors made it very difficult to extract the blades. Those had cheaper blades that needed to be replaced every few days. The whole industry built up around cheap blades that needed frequent replacement.

If you look at steel supplier websites you'll find that the material in stainless blades is not very hard. It only has a modest carbon content. It is just formulated to take a really fine edge and to resist corrosion well. If your edges are not wet for extended periods of time you will find that carbon steel stays sharp for a lot of use. Note that "use" is not the same thing as "time". Sometimes a carbon steel blade will get dull with minimal use due to corrosion. On the other hand a quick head-to-head comparison of cardboard cutting would show that the carbon steel would do more cutting than stainless. So for continuous use in a dry environment the carbon steel would last longer, while for continuous use in a wet environment (like meat cutting) the stainless would last longer. For intermittant use in a wet environment it is variable. With soft material like meat the hardness or toughness of the carbon steel isn't much of an advantage so the stainless would again outperform the carbon. If you have to cut through bone in the process the carbon steel will be tougher and last longer. For a hunting knife I go for something relatively hard and tough. I like D2, 52100, BG42 or VG-10. It is really a toss-up between stainless and carbon steel.
 
The only draw back is rust, but you only have to worry about this if you decide to use it for skinning, or cutting fruit, etc. and you do not wipe the blade off.

Think of it this way, the old green river knives, the old marbles, etc. They were all crbon steel and they worked just fine! Yes, many of them rusted, but they did their jobs well, did they not? Ive got an old marbles ideal that just keeps going! Another thing to consider is the heat treat. The higher the heat treat the finer the grain structure, the more rust resistant. Of course that also has to take into consideration the type of steel and the quality of it. There is nothing at all wrong with using carbon steel. It sharpens easily, works well, and is still a premium choice for an outdoors knife. If your not going to use it much, go with the stainless (or you plan on spending time out in the ocean). If your going to use it allot, go with the carbon.

I was active duty AF for 8 years (88-96) I worked in survival equipment. We had the old metal utility folders, the f/u, pilot's survival knife and the old colonial small 3 blade stockmans, they worked just fine.

Personaly I prefer a SAK and my marbles ideal for the outdoors.

Its all relative, how much, and where will you use it? Only you can answer that.
 
I like carbon for most everything, as I can get a better edge faster. My current beater lawn knife is a pukko I ground out of a DeWalt reciprocating saw blade- carbon, and holds an edge FOREVER.
 
I use a carbon C70 blade in the kitchen. It is very thin grounded and cuts like nothing. It is a Windmuhlen small kitchen knife. There is a variation of the same manufaturer made from some stainless. My father uses one and it shows terrible chips by being ground the same.

I tried to show my wife what happens if a carbon is not maintained and let it lay down wet with fruit juice. It just turned gray, no rust. Over time my wife managed it to get it a bit rusty but it wasn´t worth more words to get it back nicely.

I would go with the carbon.
 
I guess one can't believe everything that they read. Looking back, I think that my knives probably tend to fall into the carbon variety rather than stainless. Now I understand the difference and in The Razor Edge Guide to Sharpening that stainless preference only was in regard to knives that would be used/left in a wet environment.

I stand corrected.
 
There isn't even a question here--- Carbon steel, 1095 or CV. ALL stainless is worthless for a knife blade. Save it for the trim around your bathroom mirror.
 
the information already given is pretty accurate so there isn't much more to say, you can get some very good stainless steels that will contend well with carbon steels however, the structure limits them to being slightly more brittle and most not as easy to sharpen. With very good stainless steels there isnt much difference however they are in turn more expensive. If you will put in a bit more care to your carbon steels it will really pay off.
 
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