Care of handmade Japanese Knives

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dageshi

Joined
Jun 2, 2007
Messages
4
Hello, in Tokyo today and went to the Tsukiji Fish Market at 5 this morning, after watching Tuna the size of small houses being carted around and avoiding small motorised vehicles being driven by madmen with live fish flopping about in the back I walked past a number of shops. All activity in my mind immediately ceased and was replaced with two/three general themes they were "shiney", "sharp" and "canhaveplz".

I believe I audibly gasped when one of the owners opened up a case of Sashimi knives. At any rate I spent a certain amount of money, I feel the early morning euphoria and and shineyness contributed to this but now I want to learn how to look after my knives. I believe they are high carbon steel, none of this stainless nonsense, and are straight edged on one side of the blade.

Now the reality of my actions have set in and I would initially like some advise on keeping the blades until I get back to the UK and can start using them, I'm currently in Japan and will be for a week or so yet and then for another month or so in China, is there anything I should do to keep the knives in tip top condition. Obviously as I left the shop the owner looked at me with a genteel expression and said "carbon steel, no water" I take it from that, that they should be kept dry as much as possible, however any other tips? Also would anyone recommend a good way to keep them sharp, bear in mind I have never sharpened something by hand before? I am quite happy to practice on some not so good knives before I move onto my shiney knives from Japan as I have just christened them. I've attached a picture of said shiney knives from Japan and also a shot from mid way up the Tokyo View tower of Tokyo at night. Enjoy.

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Clean , dry, lightly oiled. As an extra precaution if you want , get some rust inhibiter paper [ VPI ] and wrap the knives .
 
Yah... generally, keep them dry and oiled. For food prep, as long as you're going to use them relatively soon (i.e. in the next month or so), you can keep them oiled (me, I prefer liberally) with some food oil like canola or corn oil. Olive is nice too but kind of lightweight.

As for sharpening... well... that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

My understanding is that these are usually sharpened on Japanese waterstones. You align up the bevel on the stone and hone away on the front (back?) chisel portion, and then put the flat portion on the stone and hone away as well.

Since you don't have to keep an edge angle constant, it can be easier than Western-style knives with a secondary edge.

That is to mean, it will be well-nigh difficult for you to get something Cheap and Cheerful to practice on if you are looking in the UK. Except if you go to Japanese markets or grocers where they will sell similarly ground (odd, yes! but very very sharp! notouchee! ow!) knives.

0.o

Hope this helps.

-j
 
The bottom 2 knives are debas, very beautiful.
The smaller one is a favorite of mine that I used to play with but never bought. I do regret missing that opportunity.

If I were in Japan, I would be purchasing 4 grits of ceramic stones. Ultrafine-fine-Medium-coarse. I love Japanese ceramic.
It would be a little extra weight but man, I would do it.

Enjoy them!
 
I've had one of the long sushi knives for twenty years - one of my favorites for fine work. I bought it in a Japanese grocery store in West L.A.

This may be sacrilege, but I've always just used the small DMT diamond stones to sharpen it - they work just fine. I tried one of the Japanese King waterstones - and it worked OK too - just too slow.
 
In general it's probably ok to sharpen these on pretty much anything with a fine enough grit.

Just be sure not to put a secondary edge bevel on it.

-j
 
You make an extremely good point about not being able to find practice knives, that hadn't occured to me. Oh well best just do the job properly :)

As an aside the owner sharpened up each knife before he sold them too me, he had a set of 3-4 stones and one huge wheel the two large knives he used the small stones in succession two larger grey stones and then a smaller lightish brown stone. The little knife he put on the wheel and then did the same routine I think. It was fairly fascinating to watch.

I am off to Osaka today, I was there a week or so ago and saw a shop filled with so many knives it made my eyes water, no doubt I can find some sharpening equipment there. I shall take photos of the racks and some of the ridiculously weird knives I saw there. You guys might appreciate them.
 
I use small Japanese knives, chisels, and gouges for woodcut printmaking and have some experience with waterstones. You might consider Japanese grits of 800, 1200, 4000 and a polishing stone of 8000. Unless you're into reshaping geometry you don't really need anything with more tooth. However a 320 or so grit is really nice to have on hand.

A word of warning, DON'T buy combination stones, IMO they're not worth the bother.

You will also need a small stone of limestone, called a Nagura. There are manmade versions, but while you're there at the source, so-to-speak, find a large natural one.

A good tutorial can be found here, at http://woodblock.com/encyclopedia/entries/014_02/014_02.html, even though it relates to woodcut matters.

Cheers, Eli
 
I used to live in Japan and have a few similar knives. One word of caution: water can easily seep under the handle and corrode the tang. Try to keep them dry (to the extent that it's practical to do so). I've seen some guys dribble crazy glue around the base of the blade where it meets the handle. Not sure if this helps or hurts. I do know it's ugly...so I personally never tried it.

Emre
 
One word of caution: water can easily seep under the handle and corrode the tang. Try to keep them dry (to the extent that it's practical to do so).
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Since joining this group, I've given several knives the hot vinegar treatment to build in the black oxide patina and really like the results; I've been wondering if this might be useful for Japanese blades, especially those that use a backing of iron to support a high carbon edge steel. As all of my small Japanese tool blades are designed to be moved forward as needed, they would be ideal for this method of preservation.

As for that matter, I guess it would also work for my Swiss and German carving tools and plane blades.

Has anyone tried this before.

Eli
 
There were alot of knives there I concentrated mainly on the hand made carbon steel ones and a few odd and interesting ones I spied.

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On the subject of stones, there were indeed ALOT there, any I was a bit of a loss really, many many stones pretty much none of them with any english or any numbers indicating grits. So I passed this time, the brand on them was "Shapton". Price on some of them was a bit hair raising, in the 5000 yen range aka around £20 or $40. Not being an expert in such things I don't know if this is overly expensive or not. Plus with the range of them there I am debating just taking in my knives, giving them to the wizened old japanese gentlmen who looked like he could tell you everything you ever wanted to know about sharpening stones IF you could speak Japanese and somehow telling him I want 3 (or was it 4) stones and seeing what he comes up with.

It's fun this Japan lark.
 
Shapton is a great brand and makes some of the best artifical waterstones. Shapton does make a cheap half stone that comes in a white translucent plastic box (M5 series about 5mm abrasive on a 5mm ceramic tile) That would be a great price on their other stones though. Two nice series on wooden bases... M24 is a bit harder and designed for hard-use kitchen knives and comes in grits up to 5k ( http://www.shapton.co.jp/Products/m24series/frame_1.html ). The M15 series is similar, a bit softer and comes in grits up to 12,000 ( http://www.shapton.co.jp/Products/m15series/frame_1.html ) . Then there is the Kuromaku series that comes in colored plastic boxes (Shapton Professional in the U.S.) that is a resin based ceramic stone that comes in grits all the way up to 30,000 ( http://www.shapton.co.jp/Products/kuromaku/frame_0.html ). They also make some huge ones called the LR250 and the "Hippo" series that looks like this http://www.shapton.co.jp/Products/kabado/frame_1.html ).

That is probably an excellent price... low prices on the Kuromaku would be http://homepage2.nifty.com/s-kawai/shapton-hanokuromaku.html The best U.S. prices would probably be from Japan Woodworker http://www.japanwoodworker.com/dept.asp?dept_id=13234

A Kitayama 8k ( 北山 砥石 Kitayama toishi... some places also list it as 10k or 12k, but it is really 8k) goes for about 4,000 to 4,500 yen there. You can also find good prices on the Naniwa stones there (they are the ones with the pic of an ebi/shrimp/lobster on them). Your European prices would probably be double what you can get them for there.

A very nice 8k stone is this one http://www.rakuten.co.jp/sekinohamonoya/440372/452465/526009/624415/ (Naniwa snow white) which also comes on a plastic base and can be had for around 7,000 yen or less (that one has won plane blade sharpening competitions among carpenters) Nanaiwa also makes a set of ceramic stones tht looks like these http://www.rakuten.co.jp/sekinohamonoya/440372/452465/526009/526012/ (Japan woodworker has the 10k for about $90 - very soft but great for polishing. Korin in NYC has the 2k and 5k for up to $126.00, which is pretty high considering you can get it for 5,000 yen there ).

Oh, if you see one of these http://shop.niimi.okayama.jp/kajiya/en/shop_e/toishi_e/okudosui_e.html for under 10,000 yen, buy it for me (yes that is 3 million yen or about the price of a nice car)

Oh, you might pick up some Tsushima nagura while you are there (comes in 1" black cubes, often laquered on 5 sides... makes a nice thin polishing paste on hard polish stones), though about $30 for a little hunk of nagura is a bit expensive, but I've never seen it for sale anywhere outside of Japan.
 
dageshi,

Fascinating pictures -- thank you for posting.

I really enjoyed them. =)

Especially that long pair... whatever they were.

That would be one expensive piece of o-toro that would need a sashimi knife of that size.

-j
 
o.k took another look today and they have the M5, M15 and M24 ranges that I noticed, they also have some ridiculusly expensive 50,000 yen "Made in Kyoto" stones which I guess are for hardcore sharpeners. At any rate I think realistically and bearing in mind I've never sharpened anything in my life and will not be putting these knives through the ringer, I won't need too many stones, I'm hoping someone can recommend 2-3 stones that give me a reasonable range of grits? Bear in mind I am a novice :) Weight is a factor bearing in mind some of the airlines I fly on have strict allowances.

Any recommendations from the Shapton range?

Thanks
 
Well, you could ask what the shop owner recommends, but probably the M24 (or M15) in 1000, 2000 and 5000. That should cover most kitchen knves giving you anything from a toothy to a smooth edge. You can get a coarser diamond plate back home if you ever need to reprofile or fix big chips. Mostly all I ever use is a 2000 and a 5000.

BTW, you shouldn't use a steel on your Japanese knives the way you would a western knife... the blade is thnner, sharper and harder (and therefore more delicate) so using a steel like you would a soft Western knife can cause chipping, but then the edge shouldn't fold on you like Western knives either (Western knives are handy for hacking on bones or frozen foods without chipping, and you can just mash the edge back into shape with a steel, so use them for cutting/choppping questionable items and save the Japanese knives for making paper thin slices of brisket or tomato etc)... if you do get a little unevenness on the edge, a few swipes on a 5000 grit stone should take care of it and leave you with a nice kitchen razor....

Note: if you hone these things right (see the thread Matt321 recomended), they can get almost as sharp as a razor blade. DO NOT EVER put your thumb on the back of a carrot and push it onto the edge of a Japanese knife the way you often see people do with their dull old paring knives... you'll have bits of thumb in the stew!
 
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