Care of leather of collectible knife

[jbushee]

I have a few old knives, and I know the general rule is you don't do anything to them in the way of repairs or polishing or enhancements, but I'm curious as to what people think about leather preservatives.

One knife in particular, a '71 Puma Fish Scale knife with the original leather thong, I'm really tempted to apply some mink oil to the leather.
The leather is very dry and fragile feeling, and I'm afraid if I don't act, the leather will just deteriorate.

Guess the same could be asked about some of the older sheaths.

Thoughts?

 

[EChoil]

The key to ultimate care of ANY quality leather is a good genuine horsehair brush and "Bick 4" by Bickmore. They are located in Brighton, MI. I have many, many pair of exotic leather boots, motorcycle jackets, Harley saddlebags and kit, knife sheaths and misc. leather items that Bick 4 has kept looking brand new for 25-30 years. Avoid anything that has, or smells like, alcohol--the Lexols, etc. out there. Saddle soap is much too harsh (can contains lye) to be used as a regular leather 'treatment,' although it can be used sparingly on very old or dirty leather only to clean it. Just be sure to get it all off with damp rags before applying mink oil or Bick4 immediately afterward once dry.

www.bickmore.com

A little mink oil won't hurt leather that is already in trouble or cracking but use it sparingly. Put a very light coat of mink oil on the leather with your fingers, give it a couple hours then buff it thoroughly with a HORSEHAIR brush. Mink oil is notorious for attracting dust unless it is buffed well. Apply the Bick 4 afterward with a cloth. Then use just the Bick every now and then (monthly; semi-annually, depending on conditions) as the leather feels dry. Mink oil will also darken most leather more than Bick 4 will.

Leather is skin and should be thought of and treated accordingly--run the backs of your fingernails very lightly across the leather...if it feels/sounds dry, apply some Bick. You will notice the difference in both feel and sound after it's applied. With occasional care using Bick 4 and horsehair, decent leather should last almost a lifetime. If the leather gets wet DO NOT FORCE DRY IT. Let it air dry then apply some Bick and buff. If you want to shine it up a little, use a good boot creme such as Meltonian after treatment. The Kiwi and Esquire polishes out there may contain kerosene, alcohol or other things harmful to good leather.

 

[Novaculite]

I hope they don't toss us out of here for talking about leather rather than steel.

Thanks to EChoil for the Bick 4 tip. Judging by their product information, in 1994 (sic) I bought something very similar and in the same kind of container but wearing the brand name Track 'n Trail, had a friend send me another bottle of the stuff years later after having used it regularly on my Timberline shoes. I still have about half a bottle of it, and the shoes are still in use and in very fine condition 20 years later.

What I hesitate doing is using it on leather clothing. One application of the wrong stuff on a leather jacket and you will end up squeaking for five years. I know what I'm talking about, people turn around and stare at me on the street when I pass, so anything with the slightest amount of wax in it will keep me in a bad mood for ages. So what is your experience with leather clothing?

Aside from that, my experience with leather care is that it is best to treat leather long before the leather really needs it. If you wait until it looks like it's in need of treatment, it's too late. And it is best to apply the least amount of leather treatment, wax, conditioner etc. that you can manage. A frequent and extremely thin coating of whatever you use, followed by a little buffing, will in most instances result in leather that people will comment on in a positive sense. They may turn around and stare, but only in envy.

 

[jbushee]

Thanks all. Guess it boils down to whether it's worth more with the leather thong that's been treated, or no leather at all because it rotted off...
Sounds like I'm hearing that it won't devalue a collectible knife if I treat the leather sheath, straps etc.
Just received the one in particular I'm posting about, btw.

 

[Omega Leather Works]

You could try a light application of (pure) neatsfoot oil. Tractor Supply sells Fiebings, but I believe they only sell it by the quart.

 

[EChoil]

First, a lot of knives have some leather on them so I don't think this thread is inappropriate here. And sheaths?? Good Lord....

Novaculite - Bick 4 contains no wax. I have used it on all my leather clothing for decades....everything from straight, quality beef leather to horsehide (the very best leather for jackets) and fancier jackets with crocodile and other exotic inlays. There is NO leather I would hesitate to use it on--ostrich, anteater, eel, gator, etc. It won't 'shine,' it...just makes it look as good as it possibly can. To add shine use a good boot creme.

jbushee - It shouldn't devalue or hurt re-sale of the knife in any way. It's not like it shows or is detectable, just makes the leather look as good as it can and nourishes it properly. Use it, there's no down-side.

Regarding neatsfoot oil, it can be good but can also over-saturate the leather and in extreme cases lead to rotting. Leather will absorb neatsfoot oil until it's soggy if you let it! It will also darken leather even more than mink oil...use it sparingly. I use neatsfoot oil on the most severe cases where the leather is very old, dry and/or cracked already. It can be a good first step as a restorative prior to the application of Bick 4 on old neglected stuff. If the leather isn't in terrible condition I skip the neatsfoot. But Strigamort is right, used properly It's a good leather preparation that has been around for many years. Neatsfoot oil will add a bit of 'waterproofing' which is not a touted quality of the other preparations. It's what our dads and grandfathers used when good leather was much more prevalent before PITA, Nike and naugahyde. (I believe naugas are now extinct anyway.)

Again, just think of leather as skin, which it is. If we neglected our skin totally we'd look like an old pair of cracked dirty boots too. So give it a break now and then...if feels dry, treat it. So little care and time is necessary to keep any decent leather in good shape for almost a lifetime.

Bick 4 and a good horsehair brush! Horsehair to this day cannot be duplicated synthetically for leather care or violin bows. Kind of like wool being unmatched in it's properties even by today's synthetics--it's the only thing that will keep you really warm even when it's soaking wet.

 

[hank_rearden]

Bick 4 and a good horsehair brush! Horsehair to this day cannot be duplicated synthetically for leather care or violin bows. Kind of like wool being unmatched in it's properties even by today's synthetics--it's the only thing that will keep you really warm even when it's soaking wet.

for that matter, it's hard to match leather for shoes and many other items.

the rule is boot/mink oil for oil-tanned leather and shoe cream or conditioner for vegetable/chemical-tanned leather. mink oil will darken any non-black veg-tanned leather and will prevent further shining.

 

[EChoil]

for that matter, it's hard to match leather for shoes and many other items.

the rule is boot/mink oil for oil-tanned leather and shoe cream or conditioner for vegetable/chemical-tanned leather. mink oil will darken any non-black veg-tanned leather and will prevent further shining.

Not sure what you mean by that last part. The mink oil ITSELF will not impart much shine when buffed...but I have boots/shoes on which I have used mink oil that take a shine like mirrors. It's never impeded any of my leather from being shined with an application of boot creme for the purpose of shine.

 

[Novaculite]

Another thing: With leather care, there is always the question to be answered: Do we want the leather to become softer, or should it maintain its present level of stability? Leather hiking boots and in many cases knife sheaths are cases in point. Both are items that should maintain a good amount of stability, and when that is the goal, any conditioner with oil should be avoided. All quality hiking boots come with the recommendation to be treated only with wax so that the leather will not lose its ability to support the foot and ankle. Sno-Seal or similar products are recommended. Apply with your fingers, rub it in well, then use a hairdryer to melt it into the leather. Buff. Repeat 3-4 times annually. A knife sheath needs treatment like that maybe once a year.

 

[EChoil]

Mink oil will definitely soften leather, It's the first thing I'd use for 'softening.'

Personally I only use Sno-seal for waterproofing as there are too many other products that do a better job to 'condition/preserve' the leather. As far as I know Sno-seal is primarily a waterproofer.

The hairdryer thing requires a lot of caution and knowing what you're doing. It's very easy to burn the leather and that is bad. Done correctly and carefully it is a good way to be sure mink oil or polish penetrates the leather as it will liquify it on the surface of the leather. Use a lot of caution if you try this on good leather. Practice on a pair of old shoes first. If you get under a good light and vary the distance of the dryer from the item experience will allow you to tell when you have liquified the treatment agent--that's as far as you want to go with the heat. Any more and you will burn the leather which can ruin it. And there are no re-dos once the leather has been compromised with heat.

 

[Brisket]

The debate over what is good, bad and best for leather has been raging on for years and, I suspect, will continue as long as animals are covered in the stuff it's made from. Personally I try to stay away from any leather care products that contain alcohol, petroleum, chemicals, mineral oil, synthetic ingredients and oils prone to rancidity simply because I believe they might possibly degrade the leather fibers and/or stitching. Some leatherworkers maintain that any vegetable or animal oil is safe to use on leather but I am not comfortable doing so with oils with high rancidity.

My understanding is many of the products being sold as Mink Oil these days are made from pork fat and/or synthetic ingredients so I stay clear of them. Likewise many products being sold as Neatsfoot "Compound" may not even have neatsfoot oil in it and may have other ingredients that are undesirable. Lexol's FAQ on their website states that their Neatsfoot "Compound" is 90% mineral oil and 0% Neatsfoot. Pure neatsfoot oil I do use in moderation but anything with compound in the title I avoid. Feibing's Aussie Leather Conditioner has Petrolatum in it, which I understand is petroleum jelly.

I once read an article by an expert in the area of preserving and restoring historical artifacts that included a very convincing argument that many of the assertions that certain leather care products caused rotting and deterioration of stitching and leather fibers were in fact myths due to the fact that it was the overuse of those products that caused moisture and debris to be trapped that actually caused the damage not the product itself. I have experienced first hand when I was younger of how over oiling of a pair of leather boots with mink oil led to their destruction and am a firm believer to this day that any leather care product can cause damage to leather or stitching if not used properly. Those boots were as soft as could be but they became weak and prone to tearing and cracking with use. Leather needs to breathe.

I have used Bickmore's Bick 4 and have had good results with it. Obenauf's Leather Oil and Obenauf's Heavy Duty LP is what I tend to use the most. I once made of small batch of leather preservative from a recipe that I recall having beeswax, neatsfoot oil and lanoline as ingredients and it worked well. I think it also called for tallow which I omitted.

 

[EChoil]

Of course, when you use neatsfoot or mink oil you are using tallow.

Both are rendered from specific body parts of each animal which produce unique fats with properties similar to human sebum (see below). The MAIN property being that they remain liquid at room temperature and can easily soak into leather (while that fat on your Porterhouse steak is pretty solid until it's cooked) . Others are leather preservation qualities.

An example...the oil from the bridge of your nose will preserve your steel knife edge and blade if you're ever stranded in a steamy jungle. Nasal sebum is unique in that it is sweat through cartilage. Oil/sweat from any other part of your body is corrosive.​

For leather, in the case of neatsfoot oil it is derived from the shins and feet (not the hooves) of the cow. Mink oil is rendered from the fat just below the skin of a mink when the pelts are processed. It's also used in certain medical products as well as makeup and cosmetics BECAUSE it is similar to human sebum.

It's true that neatsfoot oil should not be used for LONG TERM preservation of, say, fine items due to the fact that eventually (unattended over years) it can go rancid or alter and cause cracking, etc. It's best used on leather that sees USE like knife handles/sheaths. Or, say, saddles.

The neatsfoot "hook" is that there is 'neatsfoot oil' and 'neatsfoot oil compound.' The 'compound' is a blend of other ingredients like mineral oil, etc. It is probably mineral oil (which I believe CAN cause degradation to some natural stitching in leathers and leather itself) to which Brisket refers.

Agree that overuse of any leather product is detrimental. I treat leather when it feels dry or is dirty...just like my own skin. I've used only Bick 4 since about 1980 (in fact, I think, but couldn't swear, it was called "Bick 3" when I started using it) on all of my leather, a sampling of species of which I detailed above.

I do not believe that, properly used, Bick would be harmful to ANY leather in ANY way, just as Brisket has apparently experienced with Obenauf's.

 

[Novaculite]

Personally I only use Sno-seal for waterproofing as there are too many other products that do a better job to 'condition/preserve' the leather. As far as I know Sno-seal is primarily a waterproofer.
The hairdryer thing requires a lot of caution and knowing what you're doing.

...overuse of any leather product is detrimental. I treat leather when it feels dry or is dirty...just like my own skin.

Sno-Seal is not only wax, it contains other ingredients too, but it is waxier than other waterproofers out there. I prefer the wax marketed by the hiking boot company Meindl, it's a little softer (sort of like peanut butter) and easier to apply, and melts into the leather with less heat from the hair dryer. And I'm not referring to taking a blowtorch to the leather, just enough heat to melt the wax. I've read instructions by boot makers on how to put your boots into an oven at this or that temperature for a certain amount of time, and then apply wax. No thanks, that goes a step too far for me, but the hair dryer has worked well for years.

And yes, too much is too much, but postponing treatment until the leather looks like it needs it is too long a wait. I'm a bit on the nutty side when it comes to toting leather items around that look like they have been well cared for, clean, nicely buffed, decent patina. All my wife's handbags look like that even after a decade of use, so do my leather jackets, and my shoes and boots last 20+ years, at least the uppers do. After all this time of experimenting I've "discovered" that the secret is to treat leather before it needs treatment, treat it often, and do so using the smallest amount of leather conditioner, the thinnest coating that is possible. Aside from the wax, which I use only for boots and a few other things that need to retain their stability, I like conditioners made only of vegetable oils and containing no chemicals such as Göttliche Leather Conditioner (http://www.goettliche-lederpflege.de/; sorry that it's only in German and French, but I live in Germany). They recommend applying it with a sponge using only the tiniest amount, and that's what works best for me.

When it comes to leather that is often in contact with the skin, like handbag or briefcase handles, a local leather expert who owns a business for leather repair (car seats, leather furniture etc.) once told me to wipe the handles clean with a cloth containing a small amount of lighter fluid (yes, lighter fluid). He said that removes the acid that our sweaty hands deposit on the leather, which is responsible for the leather drying out and cracking over time. After that, apply a little conditioner.

 

[EChoil]

I'd get that conditioner on pronto after rubbing my leather down with lighter fluid. Really?? Maybe gasoline or naptha in a pinch??

IMO wax of any kind should be avoided. Leather has to breathe; it's what gives real leather it's most desirable qualities as opposed to synthetic materials. Wax seals it off. If you waxed your skin you'd die too....and quickly.

 

[Clan Gunn]

Have two older "Puma" leather sheaths. Thanks for posting this question.

 

[Novaculite]

I'd get that conditioner on pronto after rubbing my leather down with lighter fluid. Really?? Maybe gasoline or naptha in a pinch??

Sorry, didn't mean to ruin anyone's sleep, much less their leather. I've never tried this, but my daughter uses the lighter fluid method when cleaning the handles of her purses and swears by it. Take a look at the cracked leather on the inside of an old baseball glove, where the palm of the hand comes into contact with it. Or the armrest of an old leather armchair, where hands rest on it. That cracking results from sweaty hands and those areas should be cleaned on occasion to avoid drying out and cracking. There are lots of leather cleaners out there, and some conditioners do a little cleaning as well. The guy who told me about using lighter fluid (not much, just moisten a cloth and pass it over the areas that often have skin contact) not only has a large business for leather repair, he also manufactures very large amounts of various leather cleaners and conditioners that are sold all over the world. I tend to take him seriously.

...wax of any kind should be avoided. Leather has to breathe...

When weather-proofing all-leather hiking boots, those without any Gore-Tex membrane, wax is standard procedure, has been for ages. Get on any hiking or trekking forum and page through the discussions, that's what you'll find. Outdoor boot makers like Meindl, Hanwag, Lowe will all tell you the same thing. Mind you, these are special waxes made for this purpose, and I can attest to the fact that boots treated that way still breathe. They breathe a lot more and offer a much more comfortable foot climate than any Gore-Tex boot on the market. And this form of wax treatment does not overly soften the leather to the point that it no longer will support the foot and ankle in the way it was meant to. Nearly any shoe polish on the market will have a good portion of wax in it. Countless leather conditioners do too (otherwise Bick 4 wouldn't advertise that it is wax-free). Aside from that, the recipe for the leather oil used by the British Museum to treat and preserve the leather items they have on display or in their warehouses also contains bee's wax. Its reputation is better than you seem to think.

Getting back to the leather that protects steel, I use Meindl's leather wax and also Sno-Seal on the leather knife sheaths I make, and also on the leather sheaths I sew together to store my numerous straight razors that are in constant rotation. These are in the bathroom and sometimes get wet. Wax does the trick.

 

[davek14]

So does anyone know of a solvent or "thinner" for neatsfoot oil so you can paint it on to get into cracks and crevices and still end up with a thin coat?

I use neatsfoot followed by a mixture of neatsfoot and lanolin.

Never thought of shoes softening and losing support. I use the above treatment on my work boots and they last a lot longer (a couple, few years, not 20), but I've got sore feet and bad knees. Surely the shoes being a bit softer is not the "cause" since I'm also 59 years old and working on a factory floor, but anything to minimize problems might help.

 

[Novaculite]

The neatsfoot oil I used long ago to treat my baseball glove (I overdid it, the glove softened up too much and became a bit floppy, which is probably why I never played for the Yankees) was rather liquidy as it came out of the can. If yours is not in a liquid form, what would happen if you applied some around the cracks and heated that area slightly with a hair dryer so that it could flow into the crevices?

The support I was talking about applies more to hiking boots, where you really do want the shaft to support your ankle on uneven surfaces. That would not be an issue on a level factory floor.

 

[davek14]

I use the pure neatsfoot oil and it's an oil (liquidy). I'm talking to be able to achieve a thin coat by just brushing it on. Right now I'll sometimes moisten the leather and rub on the neatsfoot to get a thin coat after the water evaporates. That doesn't work as well in the crevices. Lexol neatsfoot compound has some type of solvent which evaporates after application. Who knows what else is in it though.

 

[EChoil]

Sorry, didn't mean to ruin anyone's sleep, much less their leather. I've never tried this, but...

No sleep lost. Was just amazed... The Bick, or whatever, treatment would remove it too. I'd just never put lighter fluid on my leather.

When weather-proofing all-leather hiking boots, those without any Gore-Tex membrane, wax is standard procedure, has been for ages. Get on any hiking or trekking forum and page through the discussions, that's what you'll find. Outdoor boot makers like Meindl, Hanwag, Lowe will all tell you the same thing. Mind you, these are special waxes made for this purpose, and I can attest to the fact that boots treated that way still breathe. They breathe a lot more and offer a much more comfortable foot climate than any Gore-Tex boot on the market. And this form of wax treatment does not overly soften the leather to the point that it no longer will support the foot and ankle in the way it was meant to.

You're right of course. Long-time backpacker/mountain guy here... I was trying to keep my posts shorter. Had I expounded further I would have mentioned the exception for specific waterproofing:

In fact, I thought I'd mentioned in one of my posts here that I do use Sno-seal for waterproofing. But only for waterproofing when I anticipate its need (e.g. before, say, a 2-3 week mountain excursion). Over the life of the boot and various other wearings on dry land, the Sno-seal comes in and out of the leather's life. Sno-seal is not a permanent treatment. I would not use wax for normal maintenance of any of my non-extreme/urban/everyday leather gear though.​

Between use of mink oil, Bick 4 and a good boot creme for maintenance over the years, the key to genuine horsehair enters the picture--it has burnished it all into the leather over time and I have absolutely no need to ever "waterproof" for ANYTHING I'll run into in the urban/everyday environment. Water beads on my leather like water on a just waxed car...it rolls off. I can ride a motorcycle in the rain or wade flooded streets and I just wipe em off when I get home. An added benefit is that this burnishment provides a base leather that, those times when I want shine, will quickly gloss up like a mirror with a dab of boot creme.

Nearly any shoe polish on the market will have a good portion of wax in it. Countless leather conditioners do too (otherwise Bick 4 wouldn't advertise that it is wax-free). Aside from that, the recipe for the leather oil used by the British Museum to treat and preserve the leather items they have on display or in their warehouses also contains bee's wax. Its reputation is better than you seem to think.

Yep, you're right again. Shoe "polishes" DO contain wax...as well as kerosene, naptha or other harmful things in the case of some "shoe polish" brands. I use a good boot creme when I want to 'shine' leather. Quality boot CREMES have minimal waxes if any...only in trace amounts and only specific 'waxes' that have properties beneficial to leather. Which brings us to the 'bees wax" thing...

You're right....some leather products contain beeswax. It's one of those "special" waxes in the same vein as the "special" fats I wrote about in a post above which are derived from specific parts of the animal and have properties beneficial to leather unlike any other fats. The uniqueness of beeswax in the universe of "wax" parallels this and a technical explanation of THAT, and it's properties beneficial to leather, would go on for paragraphs. It can easily be Giggled or Wiki'd for anyone who really wants to research it.

I'm trying to shorten my posts here. :tickled_pink: I think I've bored everyone enough. Let's see what others have to say.

As far as I can tell you and I are in agreement on nearly everything.