Carpenter CTS-BD30P edge retention performance - first impression

knarfeng

knarfeng

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Just a quick note. Just finished an initial assessment of the edge retention of Carpenter CTS-BD30P in my Manix2.

In the letter accompanying the knife, Spyderco says that the performance is equivalent to that of S30V. I think that may be incorrect. At least in edge retention, the CTS-BD30P appears to be a bit better.

For a steel junky this is pretty exciting stuff, so I hope you will pardon me for not waiting to post a full review. That should be ready by next weekend and will be posted in the review and testing forum. At this point, I'm not sure if the difference is one I'd expect to notice in daily usage.

For those who wish details of my test method, you will find it described here:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-S30V-vs.-VG10-vs.-Buck-S30V-vs.-Benchmade-D2
 
@knarfeng:

Thanks for testing...! :)
Quick question: Do you know the Rockwell C Hardness of your Manix2 in CTS-BD30P ?

Sincerely,
--Lagrangian
 
Not yet. I just got the Manix today. I will try to get it measured this week and that value will be included in the complete review. I won't post the review until I get the hardness measured.
 
Great news Frank. I was also going to mention that if you would like to test out an XHP blade, let me know. I would be happy to loan you my XHP Manix2, I would safely guess that you would really like it.
 
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knarfeng said:
Just a quick note. Just finished an initial assessment of the edge retention of Carpenter CTS-BD30P in my Manix2.

In the letter accompanying the knife, Spyderco says that the performance is equivalent to that of S30V. I think that may be incorrect. At least in edge retention, the CTS-BD30P appears to be a bit better.

For a steel junky this is pretty exciting stuff, so I hope you will pardon me for not waiting to post a full review. That should be ready by next weekend and will be posted in the review and testing forum. At this point, I'm not sure if the difference is one I'd expect to notice in daily usage.

For those who wish details of my test method, you will find it described here:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-S30V-vs.-VG10-vs.-Buck-S30V-vs.-Benchmade-D2
Click to expand...

Say "Knarfeng" that's interesting that you would use S30V as a standard of comparison. And don't get me wrong because I do think that most all of Crucible's steels are decent.>> But truly I think that VG-10 is superior to S30V. OK I know some of you already want to throw rocks at me but just this weekend a fellow worker borrowed my Temperanc 1 PE model to carve/chisel some wood down to size. It was a very tough job and he had to use the blade quite a bit. I resigned myself to believe I would be resharpening my Temp 1 that evening. But to my most pleasant surprise it would still shave hair off my arms even after all the torture he put that blade through. Now my friend wants a Temp 1 for himself and I have no idea where I'll find one.

I've yet to own one of the Spyders with the Carpenter steel but I've got my sights set to get one of the Military models with the XHP steel. But do a side by side test with VG-10 and S30V>> and I think you'll be surprised at the results. And by the way congrats on your new Manix. I'm sure you'll do great with it>> for a wide ridgid blade the only one I would take over it would be one of the older Lil Temperance models. The Manix is truly a design masterpiece. Great thread!!
 
JD Spydo said:
Say "Knarfeng" that's interesting that you would use S30V as a standard of comparison. And don't get me wrong because I do think that most all of Crucible's steels are decent.>> But truly I think that VG-10 is superior to S30V. OK I know some of you already want to throw rocks at me but just this weekend a fellow worker borrowed my Temperanc 1 PE model to carve/chisel some wood down to size. It was a very tough job and he had to use the blade quite a bit. I resigned myself to believe I would be resharpening my Temp 1 that evening. But to my most pleasant surprise it would still shave hair off my arms even after all the torture he put that blade through. Now my friend wants a Temp 1 for himself and I have no idea where I'll find one.

I've yet to own one of the Spyders with the Carpenter steel but I've got my sights set to get one of the Military models with the XHP steel. But do a side by side test with VG-10 and S30V>> and I think you'll be surprised at the results. And by the way congrats on your new Manix. I'm sure you'll do great with it>> for a wide ridgid blade the only one I would take over it would be one of the older Lil Temperance models. The Manix is truly a design masterpiece. Great thread!!
Click to expand...

He did so because it is supposed to be Carpenter's take on S30V. I also doubt you will find to many people who put VG-10 above S30V as far as edge retention is concerned.
 
Hmmm...Where's my bag of rocks? Lets see if I can find a couple with extra sharp corners.

I used S30V as a comparison basis for two reasons.
1) it's the alloy which is most similar in composition
2) Spyderco said that the two alloys were equivalent in performance. Call me crazy, but I'm guessing that if Spyderco thought VG10 were about equivalent they'd have said so. I haven't seen any BS in anything they have ever said.

I've tested any number of alloys doing side by side comparisons cutting manila rope.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...PM-M4-HC-ZDP-189-M390-and-S30V-edge-retention

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-S30V-vs.-VG10-vs.-Buck-S30V-vs.-Benchmade-D2

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...tainless-alloys-using-a-visual-inspection-tec

So, Yes. I've tried VG10 vs. S30V. I was unsurprised by the result. By test result, as well as my daily use, S30V is quite a bit better than VG10 when it comes to edge retention cutting abrasive material. I've not tried them chiseling wood, so I won't extend my comparison to that activity. (I use wood chisels for that sort of thing.)

The reason I wanted this blade was to see if modifying the basic S30V composition with small amounts of other elements would improve the performance. Certainly Bohler was able to modify 440C with a bit of cobalt and a bit of vanadium and come up with a definite improvement in performance for N690 compared to that of 440C. I was curious about this one.
 
Again I'm not knocking any of Crucible's great steel alloys at all. I have had and still have many of the S30V Spyders and I think it's good steel overall. But lately I've been doing a lot of torture test with my old Temperance 1 fixed blade VG-10 and it's one hard steel to dull and ding up. Or maybe I got an exceptionally good one from a batch? It seems like I've had S30V end up with small micro chips using it in really cold weather before. I will say that my personal experience using S30V in full SE has some very impressive results. I actually prefer the Crucible, Golden Colorado made Spyderedges over their Japanese counterparts. The serration patterns even seem to be a bit better to me.

I would love to try out a fixed blade made with Crucible's S3V against this Temp 1 with VG-10; I think that would be a really interesting test. I have heard some great reviews with that Crucible steel. As far as wood chisels go the best I tried in that arena is a set a friend of mine had made out of Hitachi Super Blue Steel. But I had never used my Temp 1, VG-10 blade on a torture test of that variety before and I was impressed and didn't think it would do as good as it did and was surprised at the results. For Mr. Glesser & Company to replace VG-10 over the older ATS-55 I figure it had to be some really good stuff because I personally always thought that ATS-55 was a very decent steel in the Japanese sector. I still EDC a G-10 Harpy made with that steel and it's great.

It seems like I could never keep an edge very long with any of the 440C blades I've ever owned regardless of which company that made the blade. So I'm sure this beefed up version you speak of is probably super and I look forward to trying it out in the near future.

Wasn't trying to put flies in the oinment :) Just thought you all would be interested to hear how that fixed blade Spyder with VG-10 faired on such a rough job. Because it truly surprised me. I never had an S30V blade hold up that well for me personally. But putting all these steels through torture tests is interesting to say the least :)

The Spyderco Military model with the Carpenter XHP steel is the highest on my priority list. And I want it for a user too. So far though ZDP-189 is still my favorite but I give all of them a fair trial.
 
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Thanks for the info knarfeng, looking forward to the full review.

And JD, I'm not sure wood is a very indicative test method. I've carved maple for a few hours before with a Military, and couldn't notice any change in my edge. The type of wood being carved would probably influence that, also.
 
It's OK that you like VG-10 better but you said it is interesting he used S30V as a standard of comparison. You just received an answer to that statement. It's because the alloy he tested is supposed to be a different company's S30V. It wasn't randomly picked out of the air. No hard feelings, we were just replying to what you wrote.
 
No harm no foul. You asked why I chose to test against S30V and suggested that I compare VG10 to S30V. My response: Been there. Done that. Esta no bueno.

I think you'd like N690. It's performance is similar to, and maybe a tad better than, VG10.

A side note: In testing several offerings of S30V, the one which performed best was a blade from Buck which had a Paul Bos heat treat. It is the one I am using in this comparison. Has never chipped and mine measured 59.69 HRC. IMO, it's as good as S30V gets.
 
knarfeng said:
A side note: In testing several offerings of S30V, the one which performed best was a blade from Buck which had a Paul Bos heat treat. It is the one I am using in this comparison. Has never chipped and mine measured 59.69 HRC. IMO, it's as good as S30V gets.
Click to expand...
Definitely agree on this -- the best-performing S30V I've ever used is the Bos-HT stuff on my Buck Vantage Pro and Strider SMF.

Looking forward to the full review and hardness results on the CTS-BD30P, knarfeng! :thumbup:
 
FlaMtnBkr said:
It's OK that you like VG-10 better but you said it is interesting he used S30V as a standard of comparison. You just received an answer to that statement. It's because the alloy he tested is supposed to be a different company's S30V. It wasn't randomly picked out of the air. No hard feelings, we were just replying to what you wrote.
Click to expand...

No hard feelings were felt here either :) I guess I got a bit off topic but being it was in the Spyderco arena I thought it was interesting in the sense that the S30V is Spyderco's standard issue blade steel for most of it's Golden CO USA Earth models>> whereas the VG-10 is still Spyderco's standard issue steel on most of it's Japanese models. It is interesting that they have been using the VG-10 on some very nice models for as long as they have. I would have thought by now they would be trying something new that either Hitachi, Ginami or one of the other great Japanese steel companies might have in their pipeline. I just thought that comparing their 2 standard issue steels might be of interest that's all.

That heat treat issue does stand to reason because I've heard that hardly no one can heat treat D-2 as good as Bob Dozier does his blades. So with that said I'm sure not all heat treats or quenches are equal by any means. I do find it interesting however that Buck of all people seemingly have some of the better treated S30V via Paul Bos. I have a lot of respect for Buck because until I turned Spyderhead they were about my fav production company for years. I still have some of their stuff.

But I guess I'm comparing apples to oranges comparing a custom maker to a production company. Although I've had some Spyders And Benchmade blades too that have held up incredibly well for production knives. And Spyderco's H-1 is truly an interesting animal all it's own as well. No guys I just hope I didn't rub any of you all the wrong way. I've been on this Forum since 2004 and I sure don't intend to start making adversaries at this stage of the game :D
 
I personally would really appreciate a different steel in the Japanese models. Super Blue would make a nice Endura for sure. Nothing wrong with VG10, but a new steel would really make the Japanese models pop even more.
 
I have posted my comparison in the Testing and Review Forum.
 
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