Carrying for Self-Defense

C

cds1

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Jan 24, 2004
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It it "legal suicide" to tell a cop or a court that you were carrying a knife for self-defense purposes?

I carry a folding knife for SD purposes. The knives I choose to carry are large (within legal length limits for my area), heavy, and "tactical" looking. Currently I carry either a Crawford / Kasper folder or a Chinook II.

If I would ever actually need to use one of these knives defensively, I would not want to be in the position of having to convince a cop or a jury that I am carrying a scary-looking 7 ounce knife for the purpose of opening office mail. I would much rather tell the obvious truth.

What are the legal ramifications of telling the truth - that I am carrying primarily for self-defense?

I know that some people will suggest carrying something more innocent-looking. My thinking is like this:
If a knife stays in your pocket, you are not likely to get "caught" with it unless you are already in trouble for other reasons (i.e. under arrest). So the main concern of being "caught" with a knife applies when you actually have to use it.
That being the case, picture yourself in a life-threatening confrontation. Which knife would you want to have in your pocket? That is the knife to carry for self-defense. (Disclaimer - I am talking about a knife that falls within legal limits, but we all know that you can get in trouble for it anyway.)

Regards,
cds1
 
IMO, it all depends on where you are, all the details of the incident, how much damage you inflicted, and what kind of record you've got. These days, "Tactical" is nothing more than a label manufacturers use as a selling point. Could you have defended yourself with something more PC like a SAK or Buck 110? If the folder is of legal requirements, it shouldn't be held against you or determinate of what your intent was for carrying it. It's merely an edged tool that's commonly carried by many people.

But, if you've got a record (especially any bust involving violence or robbery) or if in the process of defending yourself, you peeled away the face of your opponent, slapped in on your own face and started to hula around the body, there will be very little mercy thrown your way!

If you ever do find yourself in the situation you described, your best bet is to exercise your rights, keep your mouth shut, and get a lawyer. Regardless of whatever you tell the LEOs, your still getting cuffed and taken in. Never volunteer more infomation than you have to. Let your attorney tell you why you were carrying that knife. It might help keep you out of correctional instituions where your folders will no longer be an EDC option. They look funny clipped to orange jumpsuits any way!

Dayuhan
 
"Son, do you have any knives, guns, needles, or grenades that I might hurt myself on while I'ma patt'n ya down?" It is certainly not legal suicide to (with very still hands) say, "I don't think you will hurt yourself on it, but I have a folding pocket knife in my front right pocket, a concealed carry liscense in my wallet, and a .40 in a shoulder holster under my left arm & a Makarov ina IWB holster just below and behind my right kidney." You know, full disclosure. . . in cooperation with the officer's intent to assess the possible threat you might represent to him (or her). You are in no way obligated to answer any sort of "well why are ya walking around with all that stuff?" question.

Some states don't require you to volunteer any info regarding the state of your weaponry. . .. like if you get pulled over, both you and the officer conduct the traffic stop as if neither of you were armed, nobody gets shot, everybody goes home. In any case, you are not obligated to answer "why" you carry what you carry.
 
You don't say where you are from, and that has a lot to do with it. I know in NY it is illegal to carry anything with then intention of using it as a weapon, self defense included. Thus it is illegal to carry a knife for self defense, yet perfectly legal to carry a knife concealed, up to 4" to open mail.

Check the laws in your area, that would be able to help the most. If you do find yourself in a situation where you are forced to defend yourself, then the situation details would also be important. Generally though if just being asked by a LEO why you have a knife I would think SD is the wrong answer. Saying I keep a 8" fixed blade on me to open mail, assuming it was legal in your area, is a fine answer.
 
Talking about your knives as a self defense tool, opens you up to civil liability. Yes, the BG can potentially sue you for cutting him up, disfiguring, disabling, etc. for big dollars. .. . and you make HIS CASE easy for HIS LAWYER! If you can be quoted saying you were carrying with intent to injure a person (even with a self defense proviso, you are still declaring that your sole reason for having the tool is to do damage to a person), you are setting yourself up to buy a creep a nice car, pay his outstanding child support, and do a whole bunch of other things you don't really want to do with your money.

If you do not say anything about WHY you are carrying, you make the Bad Guy's case difficult. Your Lawyer can now help you out of everlasting debt. He (the badguy not the lawyer) attacked you, without provocation, and you merely used the tool that was close at hand to prevent yourself from being violently victimized, to prevet yourself from injury or even death.

Knives for self defense are a whole different arena than CCW firearms. If you have a CCW, and are forced to use it, that is a tool that has no other purpose than to defend life and liberty. If I put a pair of 9x18 or .40 JHPs (depending on what I am carrying on a given day) through a bad guy, it is clear that the bad guy left me no alternative for retreat & so I plug the dude it is because that is what I have at hand to insure my life and liberty. With the CCW, the bad guy has to prove that he wasn't really a threat in order to have a leg to stand on in civil court. (Here you want to counter sue for the trauma of being forced to discharge your weapon at another human being).
 
I wouldn't admit to carrying it for SD personally. If questioned I wouldn't BS, but I'd really think long and hard before answering questions that are open to interpretation. Evasive answers are risky. Some cops get pissed that you're trying to BS 'em, others seem happy to have some at least some form of an answer. "why were you carrying this knife son?" "errrr...why, is it illegal or anything?"

I personally would focus on WHY you carry the knife you're already comfortable with.

* It was given to me as a gift

* I bought it for a hiking trip, and it was so darn handy I guess I just got kinda used to carrying it.

* I use it for food prep during my lunch break at work. there's no knives available in the office/station, whatever, or I use it to cut blocks of cheese in my lunch box

* I regularly use it for my hobby (a benign one) home repair, automotive repair, gardening, etc.

Even saying something simple and ignorant like "I just started carrying it because it looked neat" is better than saying "I carry it for self defense" AKA "in case I gotta knife somebody" in some folks' eyes.

Remember that "knifefighting" (interpretation again) is the scourge of the scourge of all things in many peoples eyes. Only criminals, drug dealers, and (insert racial slur here) use knives...etc, etc..

Most of us here on the forums are gonna know better, but remember, we're talking average joe non knife nut here, complete with stereo types with very little patience for semantics.

If yer dead damn serious, I would suggest paying a lawyer in your area for a consultation, and keeping his/her card handy.
 
First good point, your knife is legal. Second good point, you have an ordinary, everyday, nonviolent use for it: opening packages, cutting food, scraping paint. It helps if the knife is scratched up a little, too, as if it gets used for real work.

Bad point: any use against living creatures. No you don't torture cats, no you don't stab bad guys, no you don't impress your friends with how tough you are. If anyone asks, you don't even know how to fight with a knife.

In fact, you probably don't know how to fight with a knife, which is a good reason not to try, and once you learn, you can probably do more damage without the knife than most people could with one.

Attitude, alertness, and training are more important than equipment: There are no dangerous weapons, only dangerous people.

If you ever get questioned, it's just a tool. If you ever use it on someone, it's still just a tool, but you panicked when he jumped you and you grabbed for any edge you could get on your attacker. If you get taken in by the police, you are too upset to talk -- you need to make that phone call home to get a lawyer to explain what your rights are.

Guess what? You will be too upset to talk. So don't.
 
ok, since we're on the topic of legality...I still don't know if carrying a folding knife in my pocket is considered a concealed weapon, unless I missed something in this post. The biggest that I carry is my Spyderco Military. anyone know?
 
Originally posted by JediKnight86
ok, since we're on the topic of legality...I still don't know if carrying a folding knife in my pocket is considered a concealed weapon, unless I missed something in this post. The biggest that I carry is my Spyderco Military. anyone know?
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if you carry it clipped to your pocket, it's definitly not concealed. In your pocket is concealed, but I don't think that's illegal in Florida. I carry Benchmade balisongs, either in my pocket or in a sheath on my belt. I'll also carry a BM TSEK or a Microtech Socom Elite(both 4").

EDITED TO ADD: Bush doesn't suck
 
Ok, thanks for letting me know.
I mean President Bush, not Bush the band if you're confused. But if you know what I mean, I don't want to start a political debate in the forums, but he does suck, big time.
 
Originally posted by Esav Benyamin
First good point, your knife is legal. Second good point, you have an ordinary, everyday, nonviolent use for it: opening packages, cutting food, scraping paint.
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Good point. I just don't know how I could convince a cop that I spent over $100 on a Chinook II (which looks scary as all hell and was obviously designed for fighting) to cut Grapefruit with at lunch time. If I was a construction worker, electrician, mechanic, etc. I could make a better case for why I need a good knife. But I'm a computer programmer working in Manhattan for gosh sakes.

Then again, with any luck, the cop won't know one knife from another. And if he happens to be a knife-nut himself, maybe he will be knife friendly. (Hard to imagine in NY).
 
Lie to law enforcement - bad idea right off the bat and bad advice. Carrying a knife as a primary weapon, bad idea #2. Ask anyone who carries a knife for a living (yes, I for one do) and they will tell you a "combat knife" is used a tool, but not for "combat".

Sincerely, MW
 
Originally posted by cds1
Good point. I just don't know how I could convince a cop that I spent over $100 on a Chinook II (which looks scary as all hell and was obviously designed for fighting) to cut Grapefruit with at lunch time. If I was a construction worker, electrician, mechanic, etc. I could make a better case for why I need a good knife. But I'm a computer programmer working in Manhattan for gosh sakes.
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Who says you have to tell them you bought it! You received it as a gift and yes, as a matter of fact, I do cut grapefruit with it. Your Chinook II is as legal as a SAK and just because you don't work in a "tool" related industry doesn't exempt you from carrying it. I think that the Chinook II looks rather tame in comparison to a Spyderco Civilian or CS Vaquero Grande and unless you were told or read it somewhere, it would look like a lockback folder with an unusual clip, not an engineered fighting knife. Had JAK not put his name to it, there would have never been a notion that it had been designed for CQB. People buy things for aesthetic value, fit, comfort, fad, durability etc. Just because you've got a pair of AIR jordans on doesn't mean you play hoops. Just because to drive a Porsche doesn't mean you're a leadfoot. And just because you carry a "tactical" folder doesn't mean you intend on using it against another human being.

Dayuhan
 
Originally posted by cds1
Then again, with any luck, the cop won't know one knife from another. And if he happens to be a knife-nut himself, maybe he will be knife friendly. (Hard to imagine in NY).
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Well, it may be hard to imagine, but we have a lot of cops on Bladeforums and we also know a lot of their buddies know next to nothing about knives. I ran into one man at a NYC knife show who had a knife he'd made featured in Blade Magazine, and he was at the show in his NYPD uniform. :)

The Chinook II has a curved blade because the curve of a blade matches the motion of your wrist and hand as you use it, so a curve like that makes a good kitchen knife, too -- sort of like a side-handle ulu.

First things first: you have a right to carry a knife under ordinary circumstances as long as it's under 4" in NYC. You don't NEED to prove or even express a NEED for any given design -- you're a knife collector and you have or expect to buy many styles of knife, at many different price points.

I personally don't think much of knife fighting as entertainment, and if I were asked about a Sebenza I could be carrying, one fact I'd point out would be that it is too expensive, too fine an implement, to be used in some dumb street fight.

Of course you don't have to wave around the biggest, baddest, blackest blade you own when some klutz bumps into you on the subway :eek: Be cool and never get asked. Get asked and like Yaquina says, don't lie. But don't volunteer that you have visions of gutting strangers, either, that's all.

I spent most of my life in NYC, carried knives all that time, including a few big blades, but I never, never, never carried or acted irresponsibly.
 
If I was a construction worker, electrician, mechanic, etc. I could make a better case for why I need a good knife. But I'm a computer programmer working in Manhattan for gosh sakes.
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Does that mean if someone is unemployed they have absolutly no reason to carry a knife, hmmmmm...

A Chinook II is a nice knife, good size for a folder, but it is really not like a massive fix blade lets go to war and wack of heads kind of knife. I think you will be ok with it.


1> Do you have any training with edged weapons? The first order of business is demonstrating SD on a bad guy(s). If you can't do that you won't have to worry about the cops. Pursue some quality training in SD and edged weapons.

2> Obtain a good understanding of your state laws as far as what kinds of weapons you can possess (conceled vs open; blade length; ...) and know when it is resonable to use deadly force. Don't carry illegal weapons or carry illegally conceled.

3> Understand basic forensics, so to never make a lier out of yourself. Always assume you are on camera; you would be surprised how often you are.

4> Know this: if for any reason you feel it could be construed that you did something wrong, never say anything to cops. State you want to consult a lawyer and have him present before making ANY statements. They can't do a damn thing about it. If they harass you for answers, file a complaint. Lawyers in trouble are the worst for opening their big mouths, because they think they can talk their way out of anything. So lose that mind set that you must explain yourself, it is between you and your attorney.
 
Originally posted by Esav Benyamin
...Of course you don't have to wave around the biggest, baddest, blackest blade you own when some klutz bumps into you on the subway :eek:...
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Don't worry, I'm not that type of guy. I wouldn't draw a knife on someone unless my life or someone else's life was threatened.

One time I heard a woman screaming outside, in a way that sounded like there was a violent confrontation taking place. At the time I was slicing bread in the dining room with a large breadknife. I put the knife down and ran outside - unarmed - and broke up a violent street fight between her boyfriend and her ex, mostly by placing myself in between them and using psychological methods to calm them down and persuade them to stop fighting.

Taking out a knife unnecessarily can cause you to have to use it unnecessarily. It is also inviting people to kill you. A knife is a last resort, and not a very good one, but better than nothing if it comes down to it. (If I really knew how to defend myself maybe I wouldn't feel a need for a knife for SD, but learning self-defense skills takes more time commitment that dropping a knife in your pocket.)
 
Don't say a dam thing unless your attorney is present!

If I am asked, "I feared for my life."

And that is all unless my attorney is present.
 
Is NJ as bad as NY when it comes to cops / courts demanding an "explanation" for why you carry a legal length knife? I live in NJ and work in NY. Maybe I should reserve the real bad-ass knives for carry in NJ.
 
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