Celluloid Gassing Out???

6

67nick

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Nov 30, 2010
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I've recently acquired a few knives with celluloid covers and began storing them separate from others in my collection. So, as a precautionary measure I'd like to find out what it looks like when cell covers gas out? Anybody have pics? Thanks!
 
The worst of the Cell handles seem to be the thin paper wrapped knives. The blade backs that sit out side of the case seem to be affected first in my observations. Watch for cracking in the cell, or crumbling, discolouration etc.

Best regards

Robin
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Thanks Robin! I've got one that has a pin crack but it doesn't appear that handles have gassed. Although there is a dull spot in the celluloid, could that be a sign of premature gassing?
 
Smell for the scent of vinegar, which is an indication the cellulose is actively degrading. The pictures above are a good example of steel corrosion which occurs when the metal is in contact with the cellulose. High humidity and temperatures also contribute to accelerated cellulose breakdown, as does fluctuations in relative humidity. I suspect Dupont formulated Delrin to combat these issues common with synthetic materials used in knife manufacture back in the day.
 
From another thread re: celluloid:

MerryMadMonk said:
When celluloid outgasses it can do this (same model knife for comparison):

outgassing01_zps22cb504b.jpg


It eats metal
outgassing02_zpsf2f43b40.jpg


And eats it pretty quickly
outgassing03_zps9444d7fa.jpg



I keep my celluloid-handled knives stored away from my other knives and each celluloid-handled knife has its own storage space. I try to check on them at least weekly. Sometimes weekly is not good enough, though. Again, when outgassing starts it can destroy metal in a short period of time. I'd estimate it took about 2-3 days to do the damage to the knife shown above.
Click to expand...
 
Don't let it get this far....


Not my pic...




One of mine...




And this Streamline, which doesn't look that interesting from the outside....




Was hiding this underneath...






You will see telltale signs of outgassing around pins and bolsters, they will start to dull and tarnish, like in that Streamline pic. As Pipeman said, the metal that is exposed on the knife tends to react worse than metal that is in the well. If you must keep cell knives with others (not recommended), frequent inspections are a must.

Glenn
 
I keep my solitary celluloid suicide bomber in a sealed glass jar so it doesn't take out my entire collection.
 
Wow, something I've never heard of, nor could imagaine, yet certainly worth of caution to those who own such pieces.
Just another reason BF, and Trads is such a cool site!
 
So here's a question... If a knife does start to outgass, is there anything you can do to stop it???
 
None that I know of. Usually, the only thing to do is to remove the cell asap. Then at least you can save the rest of the knife.
 
Nope once it starts deteriorating as glennbad said pull the scales off and consider making some wood scales for it.
 
Well, I am going to go throw all of my plastic handled traditionals away. Gift of mental scarring and all that. So just about any plastic handled knife not made in the past 10-20 years could be celluloid? It that right? I have a bunch on knives in a drawer. And many of them are older traditionals. Just perfect...
 
Squashfan said:
Well, I am going to go throw all of my plastic handled traditionals away. Gift of mental scarring and all that. So just about any plastic handled knife not made in the past 10-20 years could be celluloid? It that right? I have a bunch on knives in a drawer. And many of them are older traditionals. Just perfect...
Click to expand...

I wouldn't panic, yet. Not all plastic is celluloid. I just did a quick Google search, and many of the more stable plastics like Nylon were invented in the 1930's. Someone more knowledgeable than myself will probably chime in soon, but I would say most of your plastic handled knives are safe. I hope someone here could suggest ways of identifying celluloid, because I admit I don't feel too confident going by appearance alone.
 
Squashfan said:
Well, I am going to go throw all of my plastic handled traditionals away. Gift of mental scarring and all that. So just about any plastic handled knife not made in the past 10-20 years could be celluloid? It that right? I have a bunch on knives in a drawer. And many of them are older traditionals. Just perfect...
Click to expand...

I wouldn't worry too much about knives made in the last 30-40 years, frankly. I don't recall seeing many knives that were 'new' in that time frame being actually handled in this* celluloid. I'm sure there are some that persisted, but I think plastic handles on knives that age or newer were more likely acrylic (often described as 'celluloid' in catalogs, but weren't) or some other inert material.


(* quoted from the article linked in my earlier post):
"To be more accurate we should refer to knife handles made of celluloid, cellulose dinitrate or pyroxylin; however I see little harm in using the term celluloid as we have in the past. Sometime in the 1940's or 1950's, the use of celluloid on knives was discontinued. The reason was that any of the nitrate products have a special characteristic called "flammability." Cellulose dinitrate is kissing cousins to cellulose trinitrate (nitrocellulose) which is "guncotton." Guncotton is an explosive substance and a propellant. The early makers of celluloid handled knives used terms for their products like pryremite, pyralin, perfected stag, shell, pearl, ivoroy, composition and other names that they found suitable for the purpose of marketing. In looking through the catalogs, the word "celluloid" is avoided as much as possible. The reason appears to be the flammability issue. If you dissect the pyremite & pyralin terms used by Remington, you will discover the word "pyro," which means fire. I suspect that the public was not aware of this in the purchase of a knife with this type handle material."
Click to expand...


David
 
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The only test I know is to dip it in almost-boiling water and see if it smells like menthol muscle rub. If so, it's celluloid. If it smells like formaldehyde, it's bakelite.
 
Case, and many other US cutlers were using Dupont Delrin exclusively in the manufacture of their knives, as well as Solingen origin knives, since the 1960's; that said, would be safe to say that virtually all US and German folders made in the last 50 years or so have been using Delrin or a similar formulation of polyoxymethylene.
 
In the year 1960 DuPont began shipping trainloads of Delrin to the cutleries, if I am not mistaken. The changeover to Delrin was swift and thorough. I believe that Germany reacted a little more slowly, and Fightin' Rooster for example was using some celluloid in "modern" times. Once you handle the two types a few times they are pretty easy to tell apart. Delrin is absolutely opaque, with no translucency whatsoever. Celluloid, except for the black version does have a little translucency, which is part of its appeal. I watch my cell knives closely. So far, so good. I have some that date back to World War One days, in PERFECT condition. Nowadays, GEC and probably others are using an acrylic, which is very safe and very beautiful.
 
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I had an orange Air Force ( I believe was a Camillus MC-1 ) survival knife that my father gave me completely vaporize. I had it in a drawer in my wooden ranch oak cabinet. I went to retrieve it one day about ten years ago and it was just a pile of goo. Cleaning out the drawer was no fun either. It was probably c. 1940-1950s
 
I have celluloid knives although they make up the minority of my accumulation I still have a few I've only had one start to break down on me and the exposed part of the blades were the first indicator the disclosing and rust were most noticeable, I also noticed knives in close proximity also showed the same symptoms.

Like has been said above once it starts there's no stopping it remove the knife from the others immediately if you see signs of degradation or like a member advice also said store separately. Other than that and the info in the link above to the Oregon knife clubs site there's not much you can do to predict out stop the breakdown of celluloid.

Keeping that in mind I have a knife with celluloid scales that is close to 40 years in my accumulation and has no sign of breaking down, every time I look at them I check them for changes and wonder if I should store them separately.
 
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