Celluloid handles?

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Apr 20, 2001
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I'm looking at some celluloid handles Bulldog knives, new ones, but I have never bought a celluloid handled knife before.

Do new modern made celluloid handles have the same worries and stuff that the old celluloid did?
 
The Last Confederate said:
I'm looking at some celluloid handles Bulldog knives, new ones, but I have never bought a celluloid handled knife before.

Do new modern made celluloid handles have the same worries and stuff that the old celluloid did?
Apparently it's the same stuff, but tempered better (usually). You can't tell though, until years later whether it's going to crumble or not, by looking at it. That is unless there's been a recent breakthrough. It's a sad sight to watch a handle "implode" over 2-3 years, then suddenly fall apart, corroding the metal with it. If you see any spot that look slightly melted, or warping noticeably, rip those handles off, and rehandle the knife! Some of the new ones are a different type of plastic, but apparently you can't get the Brilliance of celluloid. Where are our chemical geniuses when we need them??
 
The following contains some information on Celluliod I found last month after searching various forums. I cut and pasted this information together and saved it in "MY Reference Files" on Notepad. I did not save the links to the authors of this information......forgive me as I am unable to credit them. Perhaps someone will "drop in" to claim authorship.

I'm pretty sure that celluloid was invented as a product to win the million dollar billiard ball contest. A businessman was trying to come up with a simulated elephant ivory, figuring a lot of money could be made selling pool tables if each billiard ball didn't have to be carved out of a single sound piece of elephant tusk ivory. Then a man wouldn't have to be rich to buy one, and people could play on tables rented for public use.

But celluloid can blow up on impact, and soon may emit explosive fumes, so while test balls were made they didn't pass final testing, because sometimes they exploded. It still had a lot of uses, memorable are the old celluloid movies that we saw and drawing plates used to hold hand drawn images for animation "cell's".

Remington invented their own brand of celluloid, which they named PyRemite, and used it on their knifes. They couldn't leave out the Rem in PyRemite, which stands for Remington. One of their brilliant additions when altering celluloid was gunpowder, maybe because they had it lying around, but someone at Remington must have known that PyRemite would be even more explosive than celluloid.

Good celluloid can be hard to detect from the original items sometimes. I bought a very old knife from a popular dealer and we both had assumed that the ivory in this one was a celluloid. About two years later I assembled all of my celluloid ivory pieces. I noticed that the ivory grain pattern in the celluloids was on the surface only, and would wear off in spots. I took a good look at one of them and noticed that the grain patterns remained in the material wherever it was cut or sanded, and even though it was at least 100 years old and it had not shrunk a bit. Turned out to be real ivory, fooled the seller, the knife dealer and myself, but at least we all got stuck with real ivory.

Antique dealers use a heated needle for celluloid testing, as horns and such don't melt the same way as celluloid does, which melts like a plastic.. People heat a tiny needle red hot and stick it in a hard to notice place in celluloid, watching for the smooth quick melt and trying to get a whiff of the odor released, which smells plastic like when melting. Celluloid can explode from being too near a flame, as it may release hazardous gas fumes, so it's best not to heat the needle with a flame close to it. When celluloid gasses it can damage other celluloids it comes into contact with, and cause metal corrosion too. Bakelite smells different, and doesn't need the needle test, but it does smell awful for just a moment or two when first removed from a dunk and short soak in really hot water.


The formula which is used for the celluliod is basically the same today as it was 100 years ago. There may be a little difference in the formulation, but it is still a nitrate product.
*Nitrate does shrink to a degree over a lenght of time. The chances of this happening is greater on knives that are not pinned and cut properly. (No need to worry about the Case Select product not being cut and pinned properly.)

* THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO REMEMBER ABOUT CELLULOID HANDLED KNIVES IS TO STORE THEM IN A COOL AND DRY PLACE. HEAT IS VERY DAMAGING TO THE MATERIAL! (DO NOT LET THE SUN SHINE INTO A CASE ONTO CELLULOID HANDLED KNIVES! YOU ARE ASKING FOR PROBLEMS!)

One pointer our vendor shared with us is, "Handle your celluloid knives often. The more you handle and feel them, the shiny they get. The oil in your hands get into the Celluloid, making it shiny. It's beautiful!"

Because of the possiblity of Celluloid shrinking or cracking, Case is putting a disclaimer in every box to notify our consumer of this possiblity. Also, it will tell the consumer to not store these knives with other knives because of the possiblity of decomposition of the material.

-regards
 
The new celluloid certainly looks better,got a Boker,IIRC,Trapper.It came in olivewood and celluloid,sold out of the olivewood so I got the c.,and I'm glad I did.Nicest celluloid scales I've seen and I have about a dozen.Have a feeling it'll last a bit longer,with all the new,fancy,modern way of making stuff now. ;)
 
There is little to worry about with the "new celluloid looking" stuff. It is actually a polymer. The same kind of stuff some eyeglass frames and such are made of.
Greg
 
As a polymer engineer nerd, I guess I have to chime in here...

As referenced below, the old celluloids with all the issues are based on nitrated cellulose, which is both extremely flammable (as in gun cotton) and reactive, i.e. it will break down over time even when only exposed to air.

The newer celluloids are primarily variations on cellulose acetate and very stable. They use it in kids toys and screwdriver handles all the time, so it is also safe and durable.

If anybody wants more information on this, I can provide some links.

I have quite a few "celluloid" Bulldogs, and really like them. One of my EDCs is a Bulldog Sowbelly Stockman with "Burl" celluloid handles, and it is both a real worker and pretty to boot. Bulldog is one of the best bangs for the buck out there these days, IMHO.
 
As a polymer engineer nerd, I guess I have to chime in here....The newer celluloids are primarily variations on cellulose acetate and very stable. They use it in kids toys and screwdriver handles all the time, so it is also safe and durable........

This is good to know....I have wondered about present day celluloids and their composition/stability. I will add your information to my reference files. Chalk one up for the polymer engineers....and thank you for adding to my knowledge.

-Best regards !
 
Brfore buying any celluloid handled knife, I would read "The Dangers of Celluloid Knife Handles" by Dennis Ellingsen. It is available by going to B. Levines forum and opening his public profile and clicking on the knife related links page and scrolling down until you find it. Very informative and the reason I don't have any cell in my collection.
 
OTguy said:
Brfore buying any celluloid handled knife, I would read "The Dangers of Celluloid Knife Handles" by Dennis Ellingsen. It is available by going to B. Levines forum and opening his public profile and clicking on the knife related links page and scrolling down until you find it. Very informative and the reason I don't have any cell in my collection.
From what sharpthangs says, Dennis's article refers to older celluloid handled kniives. I wonder if there is any way to tell the difference? What about it sharpthangs??
 
I'll have to do some digging, as I don't know of anything off the top of my head that wouldn't be dangerous or possibly screw up the handle if it were the old stuff. I'll see if I can come up with something.
 
Well, I did some digging and found a great link. Here 'tis.

http://aic.stanford.edu/jaic/articles/jaic30-02-003.html

There is some really good stuff on cleaning and storing that might prove very interesting.

Probably way more information than anyone could possibly want, but there are a few very interesting facts:

1) True Celluloid ceased being used in commercial quantities as a plastic around 1950. I have read elsewhere that ping pong balls are a notable exception to this.

2) Celluloid Ivory and real Ivory are indistinguishable under magnification up to 12X. By the reverse of that, it stands to reason that looking at it under higher levels of magnification might be a way to see differences. This appears to be the best method of identification, as most of the others are difficult or expensive to do, or would harm what you are testing.

I don't have any real celluloid knives in my collection, but maybe somebody would be able to do a comparison for us.

As an aside, my dad was in a rock and roll band back in the 50s, and he said that old guitar picks used to be made of celluloid. After they would break, many people would put them in the nearest ashtray that was invariably around. Some poor guy would come up to put their cigarette out, only to have the ashtray go up in flame and a thick, acrid smoke.

Who said Chemistry wasn't fun?
 
Thank you for that link Sharpthangs...:thumbup: :thumbup: ...very good information.

On topic, I believe I've seen, at least a couple of times, that much of the modern stuff is touted as having a 100 year warranty ( Bulldog, Boker??). Casein is being used by some to make vibrant colored scales...but I think it is milk based, or somehow in that family. Ah, here is some information (about 75% down the first section).....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casein

Off topic, It is still used in ping pong balls...somewhere I once saw how to make a small explosive out of a ping pong ball...:eek:
Dick Dale, the famous surf guitar player who double picks each note, used to melt his way through 4 or 5 picks a show...it smelled (well if you could smell anything above/besides that stronger smoke often present :D )...but it was an awesome sight...:cool:

Thanks again for the link, best one I've seen about the properties of older celluloid.

Bill
 
Sharpthangs said:
the ashtray go up in flame and a thick, acrid smoke.

When I am drilling the pins out on a knife I have learned to keep a container of water around to keep the knife cool. Otherwise if the handle does not actually catch on fire, it could shrink up from the heat.
 
A few examples of celluloid. These were produced in '95 and '96 by Fight'n Rooster. Very hard to get 'em to show up right in a photo.
Greg
 
Another Fight'n Rooster creation called Orange Sage. I got more if ya want to see 'em.
Greg
 
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