Ceramic Fiber Insulation?? 6# vs 8#

KnuckleDownKnives

Time to make the doughnuts..
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So what is the significant difference in the 8# vs 6# insulation? I really want to get my forge built since I've just purchased a PID and thermo couple to get my temps better in my crude forge. I've found a supplier I can get a 25' roll of 6# 2300 insulation for $81 after shipping. I need approx 5' of 2" to do the job I want so I could easily get that out of this roll with extra left over and come way under in price compared to High temp tools for the amount of materials. Can I get away with using the 6# insulation? I plan on doing a satanite and ITC 100 coating as well.
 
Yeah, I get that. But am I really sacrificing if I get the 6# over the 8# from high temp tools? They are both 2300* insulation. I'll be using a topical coating over it.
 
I think the difference would be minimal with a 2" layer and refractory.
 
That's kinda what I was thinking. I just did some quick math, and it works out to like .224 ounces per sqin difference. I don't really think I'll loose that much heat compared to the 8# especially if I do the satanite coating and ITC-100. The price difference will pay for some of the other materials. The diameter of the pipe I have, I may even be able to use 3" of insulation to get the internal size i want so the added thickness and having the material to do it I think will be a bonus.
 
I'd say that's a good price. Cheapest I found for #8 25' roll of 24" x 1" was $105 with free shipping.
 
Two layers of 1" 6 pound wool will be 50% more insulation than one layer of 1" of 8 pound wool.

Unless you are going to make a dedicated welding forge, that will be plenty.

If you really want more insulation, use three layers. Three layers of 1" wool (about eight feet of wool) plus the refractory in a 12" pipe will make a robust forge with a good size chamber that barely gets hot on the outside.

For a welding forge, 2" of Hi-Z wool is the best choice.

TIPS:
1) When using multiple layers, just use a long strip in a spiral layer. Start and end to make the joint bump at the floor. You will be building up that area with bubble alumina (or some other flux resistant refractory) to make it flat anyway.

2) I highly recommend using 1" insboard for the ends. One layer will work fine, and two layers will make superbly insulated ends that are simple to make and install. This will greatly simplify lining the forge. 1/8" to 1/4" steel circle end-pieces over the insboard can be tack welded or attached with "L"-angle brackets to keep the board securely in place. Install the insboard when finishing the satanite/ITC lining. Make the cutouts in the boards and the steel end plates match, and line up when installing.

3)Measure the inside diameter of the shell and order the steel circles from online metals or any of the other suppliers. They will plasma cut them and you will only need to do a little trimming at the most. They are really cheap. See next tip for how to fit the ends.

4) (The measurements in this step are for a 12" shell and a 5-6" chamber. Make the same type calculations in the appropriate dimensions for other shell sizes)
Once you have the lining in, take a 12" piece of cardboard and cut it in a circle to fit the pipe just like the ends will. Draw on the thickness of the lining. Draw a line across the lining circle to mark the floor level. I like the floor to be about 4" wide on a 5-6" chamber and about 3" wide on a 4" chamber. Draw the front port so it is even with the floor and the desired width and height 3"X3" is good for a normal forge, and 4" wide by 3" tall is for a forge where you do wider objects. Cut out the port in the cardboard and you have the front end template. Mark the steel circle and cut out the port. The rear port is in the same position, but rarely needs to be as large. 3X3" is more than enough, with 2" high by 3" wide normal. Lay the steel ends over the insboard and cut them to match.

5) Install the ends ( you can just stick the insboard in place temporarily and fire the satanite. Start with short low firings, with a cooling after. Increase the length and temperature of the burn in several steps until the forge is run to a full internal glow for 5 minutes. Let cool and apply the ITC-100. Fire it to cure and then permanently install the ends.

6) Once the satanite and the ITC-100 are fired and cured, remove the end boards, put a little ITC-100 or satanite on the ends as mortar and put in the ends permanently. Install the metal ends over them. Add the floor layer by pouring/spooning it in through the end ports. Use a long spatula (long paint stir is perfect) to smooth out the floor and curve it up onto the sides smoothly, making it level with the end piece ports. Once the floor is in place and dried, fire the floor.

7) Welding a 3-4" shelf even with the front port makes a place to keep things from falling out when nit completely in the forge.
Welding two pieces of 1/2" pipe down the forge shell sides in a position that is parallel with the port bottom ( floor) will allow a movable tong/bar support. Make a square "U" from 3/8" round stock or rebar that will slip in the 1/2" pipe guides. It can be slid in and out as needed to support long things like tongs or sword bullets.




NOTE:

The poured floor is an important part of the forge. It is a 1" thick thermal mass that will help keep the forge temperature even, and help the blade absorb heat more evenly. While a firebrick will work , a poured layer will as as a better thermal mass. A piece of kiln shelving will work too, but a poured floor is still the best.
 
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Thanks for the input Stacey.

Here's what my plans were. Since I'll have extra insulation use it on the ends. I'll have enough to do a minimum of 2". I was also planning on cutting up an expired propane tank I have and utilizing the end caps for the ends of the chamber making a shelf and using firebricks as a sliding door. I'd hing the end caps with latches so I can get access to the entire interior for relining.

My burner tube I was planning on putting at an angle so it shoots in the direction of the opposite wall at a downward and backward angel so it would create a good swirling heat.

The muffle tube would sit on a flat floor made up of material and the muffle has a 1/2" X 1/2" X 3" square stock to balance it as well as let hot gas circulate around it. The thermo couple would come through the side level with the center of the muffle in the center lengthwise end to end. What are your thought on this?

I do think i may need to move the thermo coupe to the opposite side so I'm not shooting the flame pretty much right at it.

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The burner tube should be angled to make the upper line of it in the drawing be at the tangent to the chamber. This brings the flame right along the chamber wall.
It should angle back around 20-30 degrees. Yours is close enough.

The TC tube should be on the same side as the burner tube and around the center of the forge.

Just a reminder that when using a rear facing burner you can close off the front port as much as you want, but the rear port can't be blocked, as it is the exhaust port. The reverse is true if the burner is forward facing.
 
Ok, so I think I am going to want to change the burner to the back and have it angle to the front as my current shop the back will be facing a block wall on the outside of the house. I'd rather not have the heat going that way.

Thanks so much for the input Stacey as always you've been a huge help.

One more question I just thought of. How far in should the burner and thermo couple tube protrude inside the steel casing? Or how close to the inside edge of the insulation?
 
Here is an updated drawing to see if I have your suggestions correct. The tangent and the 20-30 degrees.

49c6460683aafb5fd4d7aad4f388290c.png
 
That looks good.

The burner tube should be nearly flush on the inside of the shell. You build up a flared cone of refractory through the insulation for the flames to enter. It can stick out a 1/2" or so for convenience, but not all the way. If it sticks out to the chamber, the flames will eat it up along the edges pretty fast. Your burner's flame tube is what goes in the hole made through the refractory.

The TC sheath can go all the way in to be flush with the refractory, as there won't be any flame corrosion eating it up.
 
Just ordered my insulation and some fire bricks for the doors. Ended up finding 2600* rated 8# at 12.5' x 1" x 24" and 3ea HFK-25 2500* rated fire bricks shipped for $92.00
 
Got a question on when I'm lining the forge. How are all of you cutting the holes for burner and thermal couple?
 
I need to purchase the tube for the burner to go through the side of the forge. What sizes pipe should I get? I'm not 100% sure what the dimensions are for the flare so it clears the Id of the pipe.
 
Welcome airlson. It is best to look at the dates of any threads you pull up.

This is a four year old thread. The forge has long been finished.
I am not understanding your comment, as this thread is about making a propane forge. It has nothing to do with insulation a house????

I
 
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