Ceramic rod sharpener -- At what point/steel should I worry?

E

Ecchi-Spud

Joined
Apr 16, 2015
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116
Okay, let me just say that I am very much a total n00b (AAAACK!! 1337-SP34K!) on the subject of knives (literally got interested just a few months ago) -- and somewhat panicky about sharpening said knives. To the point that it took me a while to select a sharpener (a Lansky four-rod turn box -- the one w/ four ceramic rods) that came with my most recent blade purchase (a Spyderco Cat). And while I haven't used it yet on the Cat (no need to -- factory edge on the 440C is SWEET) or the Kershaw Skyline I got earlier (factory edge on the 14C28N is ALSO SWEET), I am reasonably confident (or at least blissfully delusional) that this sharpener can handle those blades, and a few others on knives and multi-tools in my small-but-growing collection (ex., 420HC and 12C27).

What worries me is some of the blades I have in mind for future purchase. Some of them I don't expect problems (ex. 8Cr13MoV), while others (ex. VG-10, CTS-BD1, and N690Co) . . . maybe some more time on the rods there (I don't know -- this is just a guess). What worries me is that, as my collection grows, I do plan (slowly but surely) to acquire blades of harder and harder steel (CTS-XHP, S30V, ZDP-189, etc.) -- steels that you always hear are DIFFICULT to sharpen (I think I even remember someone referring to sharpening ZDP-189 -- sounding like Col. Kurtz).

I'm hoping (maybe w/ a little bit of confidence -- or am I delusional again?) that, by the time I get to those harder steels, I would be more confident in my sharpening skills to tackle them -- and I don't mind if it takes longer (like an hour or more instead of a few minutes) to get them sharp (patience and persistence). But I do wonder at about what time (or, to be more precise, what STEEL) such a basic knife sharpener would not be able to sharpen. Any thoughts?
 
Lansky also has a 4-rod Turnbox sharpener with 2 diamond rods; it's not very expensive either (knifecenter lists it at ~ $26). If you're already comfortable (or becoming so) with your existing Turnbox ceramic set, you might consider upgrading to the set with the diamond rods for those more wear-resistant steels you're considering. If you stay in the habit of regularly touching up and maintaining your edges while they're not too dull already, it'll be much easier to keep most any blade sharp with this particular tool. Diamond will make it much more efficient with the high-vandium steels (S30V, etc), and will also be very handy and quick for resetting bevels on anything else that needs it.

Due to the very narrow & short contact area on the rods, any rod-based sharpener will be much slower, if trying to take an extremely blunt/dull edge to full apex again. But, so long as you don't let your edges get that dull before attempting to fix them, the Turnbox and similar sharpeners with diamond rods can take care of most everything else relatively quickly. At some point, you'll likely need/want to thin the edge grind on at least some of your knives, to get them to 'fit' within the design angle limits of the sharpener (usually 40° inclusive or lower). When that time comes, a larger bench-style hone will be much more efficient; but, at least having the diamond rods on your current setup can still get that done, with adequate patience and some extra time. I've used a similar sharpener with 4" diamond rods to re-bevel a Chris Reeve Sebenza in S30V; took about 45 minutes - 1 hour to get that to a full apex at 30° inclusive, so it wasn't so bad. Just need to be patient and don't rush things (makes for sloppy results, if hurried).

Edit:
To address your specific question, as to when or with what steel to start worrying about not having enough sharpener... that'll be evident if/when you find an edge that's too obtuse (outside the angle setting of your Turnbox), or if you find you're not actually seeing any real progress after maybe 30 minutes - 1 hour of 'grinding' on the ceramics. Ceramic hones aren't very fast or aggressive in the first place, and they'll very quickly load up and clog with swarf with any heavy grinding at all. When that happens, they become exponentially slower than they were already. That's when the value of the diamond rods will become apparent...


David
 
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As an additional thought to what OWE just mentioned, you'll most definitely want to pick up a can of "Barkeeper's Friend" powder. It's rather like Comet, with the addition of some oxalic acid that dissolves the steel particles out of the ceramic without damaging the abrasive at all. A quick scrub with that, followed by a thorough rinse will un-clog your ceramic rods like a champ, and leave them like new again.
 
^Good point worth mentioning, using BKF to keep the rods clean; works like a champ. Thanks Komitadjie... :thumbup:


David
 
Excellent advice above.
I use a white foam block sold for chemical free cleaning - just water, works great on the white ceramic rods. On the brown ones either the Lansky Eraser block or fine grit Garryflex block, it's a rubber block with abrasive particles embedded in it available in different grits.
As already stated, another outlay on the diamond turnbox, alternatively the Lansky Part # LRD5F is a single 5" diamond rod (two needed obviously) but you may want the extra box for storage or if the holes are getting worn. I've had mine for over a year and use it a lot, not much play but it is there. I see a block of hardwood and some holes drilled in my future. :D
I'll add that I have a lot of the rod and hone Lansky sets as well, deluxe diamond, 5 stone deluxe, serrated set and a sapphire polishing hone but use the turnbox for touching up the edges already set on the hones.
 
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The Spyderco Tri-Angle Sharpmaker (204MF) is an excellent sharpening system as well. It costs more to purchase, but it's worth the investment and your sharp things will thank you for it. :p The Sharpmaker is more versatile than the Lansky 4 Rod Turn box sharpening system, because you'll be able to sharpen a wider range of things. Such as knives with serrations, scissors, chisels, and fish hooks. You'll also be able to keep your knifes edge closer to the factory edge angles, so it will be less work on your part.
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
Lansky also has a 4-rod Turnbox sharpener with 2 diamond rods; it's not very expensive either (knifecenter lists it at ~ $26). If you're already comfortable (or becoming so) with your existing Turnbox ceramic set, you might consider upgrading to the set with the diamond rods for those more wear-resistant steels you're considering. If you stay in the habit of regularly touching up and maintaining your edges while they're not too dull already, it'll be much easier to keep most any blade sharp with this particular tool. Diamond will make it much more efficient with the high-vandium steels (S30V, etc), and will also be very handy and quick for resetting bevels on anything else that needs it.

Due to the very narrow & short contact area on the rods, any rod-based sharpener will be much slower, if trying to take an extremely blunt/dull edge to full apex again. But, so long as you don't let your edges get that dull before attempting to fix them, the Turnbox and similar sharpeners with diamond rods can take care of most everything else relatively quickly. At some point, you'll likely need/want to thin the edge grind on at least some of your knives, to get them to 'fit' within the design angle limits of the sharpener (usually 40° inclusive or lower). When that time comes, a larger bench-style hone will be much more efficient; but, at least having the diamond rods on your current setup can still get that done, with adequate patience and some extra time. I've used a similar sharpener with 4" diamond rods to re-bevel a Chris Reeve Sebenza in S30V; took about 45 minutes - 1 hour to get that to a full apex at 30° inclusive, so it wasn't so bad. Just need to be patient and don't rush things (makes for sloppy results, if hurried).

Edit:
To address your specific question, as to when or with what steel to start worrying about not having enough sharpener... that'll be evident if/when you find an edge that's too obtuse (outside the angle setting of your Turnbox), or if you find you're not actually seeing any real progress after maybe 30 minutes - 1 hour of 'grinding' on the ceramics. Ceramic hones aren't very fast or aggressive in the first place, and they'll very quickly load up and clog with swarf with any heavy grinding at all. When that happens, they become exponentially slower than they were already. That's when the value of the diamond rods will become apparent...


David
Click to expand...

This is a great, well thought out answer. Posts like this helped me so much when I first landed here, good on you Dave! Russ
 
I have three sets of the Lansky 4 rod Turn box sharpening system...two sets of the medium/fine ceramic, and one set of the diamond/ceramic. The rods wobble on the 20 degree angle, because the holes for the rods are side by side. The rods touch each other on the inside of the base, which creates wobbling. On the 25 degree side, this does not happen because the holes are drilled out from top to bottom, so they do not meet below the surface.

When using the diamond rods, the blade will get hung up in a particular spot along the rod, while passing or slicing down it. I need to turn the rod to bypass that bad area. The quality control for this particular system, isn't the greatest in my opinion.
 
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Ecchi-Spud said:
Okay, let me just say that I am very much a total n00b (AAAACK!! 1337-SP34K!) on the subject of knives (literally got interested just a few months ago) -- and somewhat panicky about sharpening said knives. To the point that it took me a while to select a sharpener (a Lansky four-rod turn box -- the one w/ four ceramic rods) that came with my most recent blade purchase (a Spyderco Cat). And while I haven't used it yet on the Cat (no need to -- factory edge on the 440C is SWEET) or the Kershaw Skyline I got earlier (factory edge on the 14C28N is ALSO SWEET), I am reasonably confident (or at least blissfully delusional) that this sharpener can handle those blades, and a few others on knives and multi-tools in my small-but-growing collection (ex., 420HC and 12C27).

What worries me is some of the blades I have in mind for future purchase. Some of them I don't expect problems (ex. 8Cr13MoV), while others (ex. VG-10, CTS-BD1, and N690Co) . . . maybe some more time on the rods there (I don't know -- this is just a guess). What worries me is that, as my collection grows, I do plan (slowly but surely) to acquire blades of harder and harder steel (CTS-XHP, S30V, ZDP-189, etc.) -- steels that you always hear are DIFFICULT to sharpen (I think I even remember someone referring to sharpening ZDP-189 -- sounding like Col. Kurtz).

I'm hoping (maybe w/ a little bit of confidence -- or am I delusional again?) that, by the time I get to those harder steels, I would be more confident in my sharpening skills to tackle them -- and I don't mind if it takes longer (like an hour or more instead of a few minutes) to get them sharp (patience and persistence). But I do wonder at about what time (or, to be more precise, what STEEL) such a basic knife sharpener would not be able to sharpen. Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

So how goes the sharpening, are you happy with your Lansky 4 Rod Knife Sharpening System?. Did you get yourself a diamond rod set also?.
 
Good advice!

BKF was like a revelation when I bought my first can. I use it on a ton of stuff. For those that cannot find it locally (or if you're out of country) they sell oxalic acid as leather and wood "bleach" as well.

You might like to try cpm m4 as a great in between steel. While its traits are up there with the rest of the Super Steels, many find it easy to sharpen and maintain. I generally get away with just stropping. The actual sharpening intervals are pretty far apart for me.
 
It may be a while before I get to M4, but thanks. And DEFINITELY THANKS for the suggestion of BKF!
 
My apologies for not responding earlier to Dry-cell's inquiries.

Dry-cell said:
So how goes the sharpening, are you happy with your Lansky 4 Rod Knife Sharpening System?. Did you get yourself a diamond rod set also?.
Click to expand...

So far I've only used the 4-rod once on my Opinels (12C27), and the knive blades on my Leathermans (420HC). Nothing fancy; just a few minutes on the ceramic rods for each one (a little tough on the chisel-grinds on the small MTs), but they took them to "hair-shaving" sharpness and removed rough spots on the edges where they previously caught. At least for now, I'm happy with those blades. Still haven't done anything on my other new blades (ranging from 8Cr13MoV to N690Co), mainly because their factory edges are still hair-popping. I also haven't tested out one idea I had involving reducing the angle of the rods by simply rotating the sharpener (off-perpendicular relative to the knife); I may try it later.

I don't have the diamond rods yet (Q: Is BKF still safe with those rods?); almost certainly later. That is, if I don't select a different (more flexible and robust) setup later on.
 
Ecchi-Spud said:
My apologies for not responding earlier to Dry-cell's inquiries.



So far I've only used the 4-rod once on my Opinels (12C27), and the knive blades on my Leathermans (420HC). Nothing fancy; just a few minutes on the ceramic rods for each one (a little tough on the chisel-grinds on the small MTs), but they took them to "hair-shaving" sharpness and removed rough spots on the edges where they previously caught. At least for now, I'm happy with those blades. Still haven't done anything on my other new blades (ranging from 8Cr13MoV to N690Co), mainly because their factory edges are still hair-popping. I also haven't tested out one idea I had involving reducing the angle of the rods by simply rotating the sharpener (off-perpendicular relative to the knife); I may try it later.

I don't have the diamond rods yet (Q: Is BKF still safe with those rods?); almost certainly later. That is, if I don't select a different (more flexible and robust) setup later on.
Click to expand...

BKF shouldn't be a problem with diamond rods. Most/all diamond sharpeners are nickel-coated, and nickel will hold up well to the oxalic acid in BKF (oxalic acid reacts primarily with iron & iron-based compounds, which is why it cleans steel swarf from hones so effectively). As with any use of BKF, just wet the surface to be cleaned first, then rinse everything thoroughly when you're done scrubbing. Mixing the BKF powder with water, as a paste, is a good way to avoid any issues that might arise with the dry, full-strength powder. Even then, the oxalic acid concentration in the dry BKF product is pretty low.


David
 
Don't forget, you can Make a sharpening system similar to the one you are using with a drill press, and angled block to rest the wood base on, preset to 1/2 of your inclusive angle. Drill your two holes and insert wooden dowels for your rods and wrap in Wet/Dry or SiC sand paper. Multiple sets of holes can be drilled at differing angles for different knife profiles.

SiC sandpaper and a flat piece of scrap marble/granite will make for a decent reprofiling sharpening block until you pick up a diamond stone. Check your local custom counter top guy, he should have a spare piece in his junk pile. Look for 4"x8"ish if you can manage it. (Bring a 6 pack with you and keep it in your car out of sight as a bargaining chip if you need to sweeten the deal in your favor, or offer $5 to buy the piece he thought was trash)

This is a good way to upscale your sharpening method(s) that you are familiar with, or should learn, for larger blades like the Becker BK9 or those that have plenty of curve/recurve or belly to them, like the BK4.

Welcome to the forum and keep us posted.
 
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Regarding cleaning of the rods, check out this video by jdavis882.

[video=youtube;8lhHnHiFEdo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lhHnHiFEdo[/video]
 
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