Ceramics problem

Jason B.

Jason B.

Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
11,164
Today is my day off and I was a little board so I decided to put a fresh edge on my 52100 mule team. It didn't really need it but I haven't used my spyderco ceramics in a while and I wanted to put a nice mirror polish on the edge. I started with the medium stone and after a few minutes was ready to move on to the fine, I started working on the fine stone and the bevel was getting a very nice polish but the edge was feeling very ruff and had a real nasty burr. I used a few very lite strokes to try and remove it but couldn't get it to go away, I decided to move on to my UF stone to finish cleaning it up but after a few minutes of that I was getting nowhere. I thought I was using too much pressure or maybe I didn't get to the edge with the brown stones so I started over using extra lite pressure but still got the same results.

This is the second time I have had this issue with a carbon steel blade but this time I got pic's. When I took the pic's I could not believe what I was seeing, I know I have sharpened this knife with the ceramics before and didn't have a single problem but now my edge is chipped.

I'm really lost as to what is happening I've tried everything but I still get this. Any thoughts?
PIC034.jpg


Near the middle
PIC031.jpg
 
Thats really wierd... I have no idea what could have caused it. .:confused: Contacting Sal directly would be a good move though.
 
I think it's the steel that would be in question. Not sure though.
 
Last edited:
Reeek said:
I think it's the steel that would be in question. Not sure though.
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That would be my first thought too but this is the first time it has happened with this knife plus with the way it holds a edge there's no way their's something wrong with the steel. It also only happens with the ceramics.

Edge re-sharpened with DMT hones to 3 micron.
PIC036.jpg
 
Spyderco: benchstones, complete set of 3

DMT: 8x3 benchstones


Some things I did notice though is that it only happens with carbon steel blades and the chipping only occures on the fine stone.
 
I have had the exact same problem with all hard M2 (65-66 RC) and Super Blue (64 RC), and have seen it to a lesser extent with ZDP 189 on my ceramics (benchstones). It was micro chipping just like that on the first two steels, and generally when I have issues with ZDP-189 (sometimes I have no problems, probably when I use less pressure) it is a micro burr that limits the sharpness I can get even after using lapping films or strops, as I have found the cleaner the edge I have prior to stropping the better the finished product. I just moved to using waterstones a couple years ago when these issues popped up for my ultra hard steels, though I must say even M4 and the 52100 Mule sharpen fine for me on the ceramic. Maybe your Mule is on the hard side? Every other steel I have found the ceramics great on. From VG-10, S30V, CPM D2, D2, to most any other steel I can think of I have had great success with the ceramics. I am glad you caught a great picture of the edge, as that is exactly what I saw under my 100x microscope on all hard M2 and Super Blue, but I could only use my words to describe the micro chipping, where that picture says it all so clearly. Again, I am a big fan of my ceramics, but I just decided to stick with waterstones on my ultra hard steels. Sal could probably use the perfect touch to get a perfect edge with the ceramics on the knives I have had troubles with, but for me and my ham fists the waterstones and their forgiving (but messy and high maintenance) nature are what I need for those high RC knives.

Mike
 
Thanks Mike I don't feel so alone now. I think your right about the hardness playing a part, like you I have also seen this on ZDP but not as bad. I was thinking of using my waterstones but I have not been using them that long and still have a hard time getting a good edge with them.
 
Could it be that the burr is flapping over back and forth and breaking off a little high in some spots?
 
Reeek said:
Could it be that the burr is flapping over back and forth and breaking off a little high in some spots?
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A burr? No, those are chips. I would be much happier if it was a burr though.
 
It could be that your ceramic sharpener is too hard and chips the edge upon pressure, whereas your diamond stone is supported on medium-soft nickel. Maybe try Japanese waterstones? They are soft. In any case the edge is brittle. If you re-heat treat it to the same hardness and don't get any more chipping, then there's our answer.
 
cotdt said:
It could be that your ceramic sharpener is too hard and chips the edge upon pressure, whereas your diamond stone is supported on medium-soft nickel. Maybe try Japanese waterstones? They are soft. In any case the edge is brittle. If you re-heat treat it to the same hardness and don't get any more chipping, then there's our answer.
Click to expand...

This is a pretty old thread.
 
Only two months old, practically to the day. Was the issue ever resolved? Ever consider rubbing the ceramic stone against the DMT plate? Am I wrong or do Spyderco ceramics gradually wear down like everything else on earth?

Also, for what it's worth, I have the ultra fine rods and one of them came with two nicks on the corner that makes a ka-chunk ka-chunk noise like a train rolling along it's tracks whenever I passed a knife over it. I've just been too broke to afford the shipping to fix it. Just saying, if it's not the steel...
 
RyanMM said:
Only two months old, practically to the day. Was the issue ever resolved? Ever consider rubbing the ceramic stone against the DMT plate? Am I wrong or do Spyderco ceramics gradually wear down like everything else on earth?

Also, for what it's worth, I have the ultra fine rods and one of them came with two nicks on the corner that makes a ka-chunk ka-chunk noise like a train rolling along it's tracks whenever I passed a knife over it. I've just been too broke to afford the shipping to fix it. Just saying, if it's not the steel...
Click to expand...

The brown rods have a life span of 5-10 years depending on how much you use them. Daily is about five, every now and then it's ten. The white rods are closed cell ceramics, they don't wear out.
 
I get the same thing happening with ceramic rods, up close (jewelers loupe) views you can see wavy patterns like the pics above. I have experienced this with 154Cm, S30V and D2. When i use a FLAT ceramic stone i do NOT get these wavy edges or chips, only with the round rods.
 
Well, my experience is very close to that of OP.
Using my (Spyderco) ceramic benchstones on harder steels (60+ HRC) results in this very dull, chipped-like edge. :(
But I still do think it is because of ripping off (instead cutting off) the wire edge, mainly because ceramics cut very slowly and unevenly.
 
huugh said:
Well, my experience is very close to that of OP.
Using my (Spyderco) ceramic benchstones on harder steels (60+ HRC) results in this very dull, chipped-like edge. :(
But I still do think it is because of ripping off (instead cutting off) the wire edge, mainly because ceramics cut very slowly and unevenly.
Click to expand...

What do you mean?
 
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