charging my friends? What do I do?

mattd

mattd

Joined
Oct 6, 2003
Messages
252
While making my first knife (that is not post worthy yet), Many friends have shown interest in getting knives made for them. One friend wants a folder, the other wants a huge knife for cutting top block. I have told them both I can do it and figured out how much materials would cost and told them that price and if the knife isn't what they had hoped for, I would pay for the materials. I am comfortable with this arrangement even though they both said they would pay for my time. The problem is I will have a hard time paying for the materials if I need to. My girlfriend said that I should charge them more because of all the equipment I have bought and time I have spent studing and reading and practicing. I have always had a hard time discussing money and am having a hard time deciding what to do. My friends don't want to screw me out of time and money but I don't want to sell them a poor product. I would love to hear what you all do and maybe some suggestions that would help me feel good about helping myself and my friends at the same time. Thanks
 
mattd,

This is entirely my personal opinion, but I'm in the same boat and did sell knives to friends.

First, do you want to continue selling knives? Or is this a one time deal?

Assuming you want to keep making and selling: BE VERY CAREFUL WHAT YOU SELL.

For some reason, no matter how much, "but it was one of my first knives" and "I only sold it for X amount" you do, the percieved quality of those knives will haunt you forever.

Friends are your first market. Don't goof it up. Am I scaring you? Good, then I'm making the point.

I was lucky, my first knives are holding up. There are flaws that I see now that I didn't then, but luckly the owners don't see them. It has lead to more orders.

Maybe you can make beta test models. Build the knife, ask them to carry it around and use it for a couple of months. If it holds up, they'll love it and pay. If not you can thank them, correct it, and make another one.

----------------------------------------
Should you charge friends? YES and full price. They will respect you more and appreciate their purchase more.

When a friend says he will give me a discount of 10% for friendship, I reply with "I'll pay an extra 10% for friendship." Then we split the difference and settle on the normal price.

Just my feeling on the subject. Do with as you feel.

Steve
 
Sando,
thank you for your response. My delimma has been made more simple. Instead of trying to make a large folder with a clip and thumbstud, I will tell my friend that I can't do something like that yet and I will make sure that I like my H/T before I do anything that will cost a friend money. I will let them test it out too. Thanks again!
 
remember
your knives are your advertisement also
they could be around for a number of years..:)
 
I would charge them or give them as gifts. I have given away alot more than I have sold. It doesn't bother me to take the loss, if it gets my name out there.

The only thing that gets my goat is when all the people you know at work, the bar, bowling alley, etc think they should get a "prototype" free of charge just because they know your name.

I have one guy at work that constantly nags me for a freebie. He finally broke down and said he would pay for the materials but not my time. I just turned around and walked away, instead of being rude.

But yeah, anyway, sell them at a fair price. If something breaks/fails make it right.
 
If these knives are going to be really first class, then charging something for them above materials is a good idea for two reasons:

If your friends love them, as they should, they won't want to ask for more if they figure that will lead to more of their "taking advantage" of you. Ideally they will love them, want more, and talk them up, but that may not happen if you don't even charge your cost.

Second, they are going to enjoy a valuable product moreso than one that seems cheap. Now I wouldn't be charging top dollar, unless they are really really worth it, but charging well less than they are worth is another mater, and may minimize their enjoyment also. Essentially you are saying they aren't worth it by cutting the price, and if you believe that, how should they feel, even in the presence of a really good knife. I think it is really different if you have like a 6 month waiting list, and give you friend a reduced price or gift, they know that they are getting something that you, and lots of others value. But that isn't the case with your first work.

Ask yourself what these knives are worth if you were making them professionally, with fully calculated mark-ups. Many many pros underestimate the real cost of work, and end up without money for everything else that people expect in our society. This leads to poorly paid subs, and shoddy work, no ability to do call backs, or deal with warrantees, and no profit for growth. Obviously you can't charge like an investment banker, but you should know what these knives would cost for you even to get Burger King wages and benefits (or whatever modest standard you like to consider). This would have to include your time and costs to source material, all of which needs to be marked up. Your labour, shop overhead, profit etc... Armed with that well-calculated number, which assumes not only professional costs, but professional competency, start asking yourself how much you feel you should discount for your friends. Take off however much you think you should, but at least base it on a real number. I don't suggest this only to someone who wants to be a pro, but to anyone, ultimately it will help your marketing, and also not undermine the general market for knives.
 
"I'll pay an extra 10% for friendship."

That's great, will have to remember that one!

"A man is worthy of his hire"...there is absolutly nothing wrong with getting paid for your work. I would make it clear to everyone that this is your new business and not just a hobby. If a friend of mine has a hobby I could see him giving the items away, but would not let that same person give me that same item if this is how he was trying to make a living, would not even let him discount it! If my dentist wanted a free knife I would say no problem, I'll deliver it when you are putting in my free caps! I love the barter system. :D
 
Just a few thoughts:

1. Do not ever EVER sell a knife that you don't find 100% SERVICEABLE...there is always room for improvement on fit and finish. Above all a knife has to perform, so that is goal number one. Especially just starting out.

2. Do not even begin to think about your hours when you price a knife. Instead, look at other knives on the market, find something you deem similar quality and decide on a fair price. It would be really nice to get paid $15 an hour to do this, but the quickest road to that is learning to make a knife in 2 hours :D

3. I'll tell you how I've handled the situation of family and friends. First off, I've given away as many knives as I've sold. They make great gifts, because its not only something personal that you put alot of thought, time, and effort into, but its something they can use.
For those that I did sell to family or friends, I priced them at roughly twice the cost of my materials. I figure thats a good deal for everyone, I don't lose any money making their knife and can buy materials to make another one to sell for a profit. At the same time I get a chance to develop my skill, and have an easy avenue for feedback. Don't be shy about saying no, or not right now to people who want you to make knives for them though. Only take on projects you feel confident you can do, and that you feel like doing. I don't consider a good price being taken advantage of, its when they want that deal 100 times in a row that your being taken advantage of.
 
It's true that if you go for hours, you may find your price totaly unreasonable, but that hardly maters in this case since the current price is materials only, I hardly think he is about to price himself out of the market.

If you look at something similar, and then price off that, what is the point. It is just the same as picking a price out of the sky. There is a wide range of what even the "same" knife will sell for. Like if you invented the drop point hunter, or are the 40000th person to copy it. So by the time you have picked the benchmark maker, aren't you just back to winging it?

You need to know what your cost is, because only then do you have a real starting point. Over time you may move your price up, and your costs down, even eventualy have a business, but what are the other reasonable numbers?

There is what the market will accept, but we are by any definition below that here, assuming the quality is decent. Why charge anything at all, heck the material cost of an O1 knife is hardly worth the paperwork!

Unless you know what you have to get, you can't ask for it. It will always seem too embarassing or one may just mistakenly undershoot it. Real numbers are real, what you do with them is up to you, but hiding from them won't help.
 
If you are discounting knives for you friends, you are going to have a lot of fair weather friends. If you are making good knives and good finsih on them, CHARGE FULL PRICE. You will have just as much business charging full price as you will discounting them. Don't sell any knife that is not "right", finish included, and you seem capable of doing a good finish at this point.My first knife I was offered $375 for it, and the customer right then ordered another. I am not bragging, just stating that a good knife will command a decent price,and the folks asking for a discount are in a way insulting, unless you are bartering for services. I tell folks nicely, of course, how much my knives start at,money wise.If they are really serious about wanting a knife, they don't flinch about the price. I tell folks what my starting price is for a fixed blade hunter, and extras are extra $, and I also inform them of the choices of materials for the basic price. Most of my knives fit in the basic category, which includes a really nice handmade sheath by my sheathmaker. If you listen to a friend and he implies you should give him a discount, tell him you will sell him the material and he can make his own knife and save a bunch. This will either give him a self taught crash course in knife making or end the nagging.
 
"Paying your dues"...

payingyourdues.gif



Tell your friends that what they're getting now will be a steal compared to the work you'll be putting out in 2 years and that they better get in on it now while the gettin's good!

:D


Don't let her know I said this, but your girlfriend is wrong...! :p

Investment in tools, etc. is a means of building a business. I bet if a new _______ shop opened up down the street, she would expect to see fair, if not discounted, prices on opening day. Not doubled/tripled prices that reflect the inital investment of equipment, staff, lease, etc.

It's a fact of owning a business or even a fancy hobby. Initial investment is expected.

Perhaps there is another issue at hand...? :eek:


pardon my...:footinmou
 
You have just come to one of many crossroads.
Sando and Dan are correct if you intend to be a serious knife maker. You are paid more for your knives than a factory knife because of the skill that goes into making it. Not time, no one in this business makes anything for their time, it's skill. If you start selling something that will bite you in the rear later, you will regret it.

Now on the other hand...If this is a hobby, even if you will sell them later, you can let a few of your better ones go now with the understanding that your work will get better as you progress.

I have been making knives for years and never sold one. I give a lot away as gifts and trade many for hunting rights etc but I have never sold one. My work will never be good enough to compete with the good smiths. This is something many more people should admit rather than selling what I consider junk as custom made. This makes the real professionals look bad and makes the person making them look silly.
It also devalues the market when knife makers are paid damn little for their work in the first place.

This doesn't mean that your knives are junk Matt, I'm using that as an example of what not to do.

Right now you are learning a trade/hobby/craft and pendentive is right. Tools are an investment for you and you can't base the quality of your work by the amount of money you have in equipment.

Doesn't really answer your question does it. Only you can decide that after taking an objective look at the quality of your knives!
 
"Sando and Dan are correct if you intend to be a serious knife maker. You are paid more for your knives than a factory knife because of the skill that goes into making it. Not time, no one in this business makes anything for their time, it's skill. If you start selling something that will bite you in the rear later, you will regret it"

Good point, I haven't thought of it that way.

"Don't let her know I said this, but your girlfriend is wrong...!

Investment in tools, etc. is a means of building a business. I bet if a new _______ shop opened up down the street, she would expect to see fair, if not discounted, prices on opening day. Not doubled/tripled prices that reflect the inital investment of equipment, staff, lease, etc."

I agree. Good point. Thanks Dan

It seems to me like I am not ready to make any money on knives. I am thinking that I will continue to charge two dallars a knife to sharpen them and if someone wants a knife, I will deal with it on an individual basis. Maybe I will only charge for materials with the understanding that I am just a beginner and they are all test knives for now. If I become popular and I think my work is worth it I'll charge more. I have enjoyed reading the feedback on my thoughts! Its also nice to know that Dan won't be stealing my girlfriend any time soon.

:)
I will keep learning and trying to make the best knifes I can.
 
matt - don't take it too hard or seriously...

Knifemaking can be a lot of fun and should be profitable too.

Figuring out the price for a knife is a battle that even the best of pros has to fight. It's a challenge for everybody.

Just keep 2 things in mind - no matter how good your knives get:

1 - Your customer's first impression will be based on sharpness, period. No matter how fancy it is, they always test the sharpness, and it will either sell it, or devalue it.

2 - Your customers will always want to feel like they're getting a deal, or special treatment, etc. If you can satisfy this without getting bit in the rear - you're a true businessman. ;)



Cardinal rule for beginner knifemakers: no matter what, don't sell your first knife! At first, it's a gentle reminder of where you've come from - then it starts to get humorous lookin' at it - then it starts to look like a child's toy... :D


Seriously, though, Congratulations on getting some customers. Take advantage of 'em!

Tell them straight up what to expect, sell them the knife for "half price", and fasten your seatbelt...
 
Thanks Dan,
to touch on your sharpness comment...

Even though a knife might require a little more angle to be truly effective should I sharpen it to a "thinner" ege to produce the "scary sharp" edge that might be a little more flashy and impressive? Instead of a 27 to 30 degree angle, maybe a 20 to 23 degree angle? Is it worth the sacrifice?

My first knife is a simple skinning knife that I will use for a long time if the H/t is what I want. I would never give it away, its for me. I will post it as soon as figure out the finish, this has given me fits.:rolleyes:
Matt
 
Originally posted by mattd
Even though a knife might require a little more angle to be truly effective should I sharpen it to a "thinner" ege to produce the "scary sharp" edge that might be a little more flashy and impressive? Instead of a 27 to 30 degree angle, maybe a 20 to 23 degree angle? Is it worth the sacrifice?
Click to expand...
Would you consider this clunker scary sharp?

20" long khukuri and 40 sheets of paper


Edge Angle is only one part of it and has more to do with toughness, than with sharpness.

If your skinner is never going to be used on bone, then take it down thin. If you think might even once use it on bone, leave it thick and give it either a convex, or 2-bevel edge.

Either way, give your edge plenty of stropping and you'll get it sharp.
 
I think edge angle is directly related to sharpness unless you only define sharpness as the process of smoothing the edge with stones or whatever. There is no question that a razor sharpened in the same way with a 60 degree angle, will feel less sharp than one shapened to a 20 degree angle. There are exceptions, but they tend to be tool rather than esge specific, which I guess is mostly out of the knife realm.

"tell him you will sell him the material and he can make his own knife and save a bunch. This will either give him a self taught crash course in knife making or end the nagging."

Good point! Case specific, this guy has friends who want to pay more!


I agree about no discounts, and certainly wouldn't offer them on opening day. However there isn't all that much difference between just always having discounts (people expect low prices) and always having low prices (people expect low prices). In an efficient market one would always have negotiated prices, but that ain't the shell game here.

If you say the equipment you have has nothing to do with the prices you charge, then any business just exited stage right. Yeah it's messy. If I was in business maybe I should have started by hand, so I could fully cost my pieces, having started with a KMG grinder etc..., and some carryovers from other businesses like my drillpress, and many grinders and museum sized collection of stones, etc... I have subsidies in a number of complex forms. But the question is given the subsidy do I just throw up my hands and say "well it's complicated, so costing just went out the window"?
 
Here's my business model:

Only profit is used to purchase equipment, help the business grow, etc.

If I work hard enough to create a profit, then I can have as many "extras" as I want - which (hopefully) will help bring production time down, which increases profit...and so on.

I think the cost of the knife should be based on a compromise of 2 things:

1 - what the customer is willing to pay
2 - what the maker is willing to part with

It should not just be based on having equipment costs, overhead, time put into it, etc. Of course, all of things factor in eventually, but one thing an artist/artisan should never do is bill hourly. It's not like you're doing data entry or something, where at the end of the day, there's a measurable end product. With knifemaking there's always problems, setbacks, mistakes, etc. If you make a mistake do you bill the customer for it? (hope not) But I think we all agree that making mistakes is how we manage to learn, and it's going to happen, no matter what.

Custom knifemaking is an extremely subjective market, meaning that there are not "fixed prices" for what a bowie should cost, etc. (thank goodness!) ;) When you have a subjective market, bargaining comes to the table and if you aren't willing to negotiate, then you shouldn't enter the transaction (either buyer or seller).


Another thing I've found:

The more "informed" your knife buyer is, the better off the both of you will be.
 
do you guys use a platen when stropping? I don't use it with 320-800 belts but with the leather belt in bounces to the point where the belt looks like its 3/4" when grinder is on. Nice video Dan, I have really been trying to let my arm hair grow back. What are some other sharpness demonstrations like that?
 
Originally posted by pendentive


I think the cost of the knife should be based on a compromise of 2 things:

1 - what the customer is willing to pay
2 - what the maker is willing to part with
Click to expand...

Thats my philosophy and the whole reason I said find knives of similar quality, be it custom or production and see what they're selling for. Its not pulling a price out of your ass, its finding out where the market is and what your target might be. It isn't set in stone, its a reference point. Look at that, the cost of your materials and the effort you put forth (not in terms of an hourly wage, but did you work to hard to let it go for "$X", was it technically difficult requiring more skill/know how on your part etc. )From there you make a decision.


Also, as far as selling to family/friends, I have never had anyone ask for a discount. They have all asked for the knife and paid what I asked, and sometimes tried to give more. If someone comes demanding a discount, there is something wrong.
 
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