Chariot is going to be unbanned

Spark

HPIC - Hatas gonna Hate
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In reviewing what I've been able to find on what's going on, I'm going to unban Chariot.

Don - by editing and deleting his posts, you've left me with no other choice. Everything that's left doesn't warrant banning, and whatever is gone is gone. This is precisely why we have our "No Editing, No Deleting" Policy - without evidence to back up our actions, we cannot show cause for taking them in the first place.

If there is a problem where something said needs to be deleted, then do so - but make sure that you make a copy, save it, and forward it to Mike or myself - that way we are armed with the facts and can take proper action.

None of us here are above questioning - we are not tin gods or dictators. I've been wrong more times than I can count and when I'm called on something, I defend my position. If someone disagree's with something you said, tough noogies - it's your job to back up your position. We don't ban people just for disagreeing with us - and unfortunately, that's all I'm seeing.

Next time give us some room to maneuver, and the original evidence if at all possible.

Spark

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
Spark, I saw some of those threads, and I understand why Don and others found them irritating and troll-like. However, I did not think Chariot was being intentionally malicious. I certainly Do Not agree with the deletion of threads. There are some emotional sensitivities raised recently by what happened to James Keatings forum over at KFC. Most of the anger that Chariot generated could have been avoided by simply ignoring him. He has been called CharIdiot is WC for some time now. And Bram is right, not all of his posts were intended as trolls. I think he has a legitimate interest in knives, and A LOT too learn about life, and effective communication. Thanks for restoring his priviledges. I hate to see anyone banned who is not an obvious troll with No reedeming qualities.

Paracelsus
 
Have you communicated with Chariot about this? Has he shown any sign he's finally listening?

Have you communicated with Don about this? Has he changed his mind about either Chariot goes or he goes?

If you take the time to read all of Chariot's posts for the whole time he's been a member ... I think you'll find a very consistent pattern. It all came to a head when he flooded the FCA forum with trolls for days, also doing a little minor trolling in General, Practical Tactical, and CSSD (that wasn't so bad; I can understand Paracelsus and Bram aren't very upset). Several of us tried to reason with him and ... well, not all of his responses were deleted ... then he brought FCA practically to a standstill while we spent days trying to get hold of Spark ... last I looked there was enough left undeleted to show pretty clearly what was going on.

This reminds me of when New Sage almost singlehandedly forced rec.martial-arts to move to rec.martial-arts moderated. It's easy to tell people to stop responding to a troll, not so easy to make them do it. New Sage trolled in every thread and the topic of every thread turned to "New Sage is an idiot." That went on for weeks before we got organized to form a moderated group, and we lost a lot of members during that time. Over the next few months most of them came back....

I don't know. If Chariot shows any signs he might straighten out ... I would hope really straightening out and not just returning to staying barely within the bounds ... if Don is willing to give him another chance ... if we watch him and consider him on probation and don't let things get totally out of hand again ...

Naturally we hate to ban anybody, but if it comes down to a choice between Chariot and a lot of other members, members who contribute ... heck, if it were just a choice between Chariot and Don that ought to be clear enough ... but if Don leaves this place he won't be leaving alone....

-Cougar :{)
 
Oh, this is going to be really sweet now that you have more or less neutered my ability to control him.

You have taken my Kryptonite from me. Heh heh heh...is my name still on the FMA Forum?
biggrin.gif


If he comes in there bursting into threads telling me that he has a thread running in Bram's Forum or elsewhere that is similar, and that what I or someone else has posted really does not belong in the FMA Forum, I'm supposed to eat that, huh?

Chariot is far worse than "Old Knife Guy," at least that Troll knew he screwed the Pooch and in shame, banned himself.

Chariot, on the other hand, is recalcitrant and redundant in his efforts to disrupt and make no mistake, that is what he is doing.

He has no listed E-mail and he is an anonymous figure. When he and I had a disagreement, I was going to E-mail and he had no E-mail. I asked him to E-mail me, he never did. Then it became ugly. It became ugly because there was no communication on his part and then he brought it over when I decided to enlighten people as to some of my "Street Experience." He deliberately discounted anything anyone had to say in Bram's Forum unless they had "Street Experience," he would not E-mail me about anything and then when I posted about it, he came over and simply urinated on the Thread. And that is supposed to be OK? You see the pattern yet folks?

One hour he is of the opinion that Martial Arts are bull&#115hit and the only thing that is valid is "Street Experience."

Then you post about your "Street Experience," he says that is no longer valid and another form of "training" is legitimate and that "Street Experience" is no longer en vogue...he then goes into Bram's Forum and starts a Thread and calls it "Ghetto Experience." And he then, under the new term "Ghetto Experience" tears down everything that he stated with regard to the legitimacy of "Street Experience."

That, my friends, is a malicious, trolling, &#115hit starter...if that right there does not convince you that he is, I don't know what will...he is simply trying to discredit people who are serious about Edged Weapons by continuing with a facade that he is involved in this sort of training.

He is of the opinion, his hidden agenda, that [NHB] or "No Holds Barred" Fighters are superior to people in the Filipino Arts when it comes to defense or offense with an Edged Weapon, using them or defending against them. Now, I am supposed to let the FMA Forum be the dumping ground for people who want to throw that around and simply again, urinate on a Community that I Moderate?

How about you let a Rosie O'Donnell Clone into a Gun Forum (if you had one) and say one minute that they trained with firearms and the next minute say they are bull&#115hit and that someone will merely take the gun from you and use it on you?

Where do you draw the line?

Spark,

You and Mike are obviously busy, if you cannot trust Cougar and myself, who then? If you are so busy that you become unresponsive to problems, we are simply supposed to let someone like this continue to disrupt a Forum?

When you cannot respond because you have other matters to handle, the least you could do is give us the benefit of the doubt instead of deliberately sabotaging legitimacy and authority to control disruption.

Since "Chariot" cannot be reasoned with nor communicated with privately, he cannot be dealt with by me in any other way. I asked for your help and through an E-mail glitch, nothing happened. I then called on last Friday and spoke to Mike. I understand how someone can drop the ball, but so many times?

You know something guys, I had a Diehard KFC Fan E-mail me after the "Old Knife Guy/Keating Debacle" and inform me that was a direct attack on KFC from BFC, as if we all sit and chant with black candles at the prospect of making James Nowka pay for the Sins of Earl Stewart.

I kindly informed him that he was entirely full of &#115hit and to return to the television to watch "The X Files."

I stick up for you guys and you piss on what I had to endure at the hands of this miscreant.

He is deliberately baiting me, if he continues to do this in the future. I will not quit being Moderator of The FMA Forum, you will remove me. That is what is going to happen if he walks that path. I know you want me gone now. That's OK...let me tell you something though, I got screwed by Mad Doggy once and I'm saving this Post because quite frankly, I expect you want to ban me from all of BFC for my "attitude."

At which point I will begin to E-mail everyone in the forums I can, if you can ban my entry from BFC by ISP#, I will go to a friend's house and register and let everyone know what the deal is privately.

Will I be afforded the same caring, tolerance and consideration that "Chariot" has been extended? Again, I doubt it.

If you remove me as Moderator, I will Post as to why this happened.

If you eliminate by ability to Post, I will go to another computer and do it, I don't care.

Quite frankly, I think I have been treated rather &#115hitty in this matter.

Now, if you remove me as a Moderator, then you are extending Chariot a courtesy that you will not extend to me.

If you ban me from BFC, you have censored me for defending that Forum against Trolling, and NO ONE DISAGREED with my actions in that Forum, they all thought the guy was an &#97sshole.

Furthermore, alot of people want that Forum to go "Tactical" because that is a modern interpretation of FMA anyway. Chariot is against the grain.

So are you.

I have been here for quite awhile, I have never had a problem like this. That should speak volumes...

I sit here, sorting through so many things and I could continue to write about Chariot, however, I will turn my laser on you at BFC.

Have you not banned Hotmail Accounts from being able to register at BFC? Am I mistaken? Or was that policy done away with?

Explain to me the difference when someone can post anything they want and harass whoever they desire and they have no E-mail listed...and don't use their real name...

Oh? As long as they are anonymous to us, that is OK, but not to you. You don't want to deal with your enemies and have taken steps to neuter and silence them, but I am supposed to "take it?"

Why ban Hotmail Accounts at this point?
 
Chariot's problem is not just disagreement; it's disagreement purely for the sake of being disagreeable -- it isn't even disagreement unless you call responding to everything with "that's a lot of bull" disagreement, unless you call arguing opposite idiocies on alternate days honest disagreement....

There's a procedural issue here. I thought the reason we had moderators was to take some of the load off Mike and Spark. Talk about keeping a dog and barking yourself ... how about keeping watchdogs and muzzling them? I knew I wasn't consulted before Spark unbanned Chariot -- now I see Don wasn't either. It would take a couple of hours of reading to really understand why so many people want Chariot banned. If you don't listen to the moderators what's the point of having moderators? I saved some of the threads and I might have some of his trolls that were deleted before some people saw them archived -- I'm not sure if I do or not. Should I bother or will that just be ignored too?


I'm not ready to give up on Bladeforums just yet; I still have hope we can work this out ... but I'm starting to take the idea of starting a new tactical forum more seriously. Maybe there aren't enough on the net already. Seems like they all go to one extreme or the other, either not allowing sincere disagreement or allowing any trolling at all no matter how bad.

-Cougar :{)
 
Cheer up Cougar, I think I have "BladeWiz II" brewing currently...WOW, when it rains it pours. I E-mailed this guy at around 9:00 this morning...and E-mailed him nicely...

------------------
"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.
 
...and 14 hours later, no response. Sent another one.

Let's take this one by the "book," the one where the rules don't really mean much, just the appearance of them.
 
The answer is not to edit and delete his comments. The answer is to get Mike or my attention, and we'll look at it.

If you think it's worth banning over - show it to us and we'll make that decision.

But get this straight - editing or deleting posts unilaterally is a no go. You want to do that, there's plenty of room at TacticalForums or KnifeForums, they want people with that mindset.

Again, use your best judgement - if a post really needs to be deleted or edited, and I mean really then do so - but do me a favor and save me a copy of the whole post (or thread if possible) and let myself or Mike take a look at it.

"Looking for a fight" does not equal "must be banned" - and when you delete the evidence, you leave us without recourse.

As for "hard to contact" - there's this forum, there's our phone lines during the work week. I'm not seeing racial slurs or anything extreme. Past that, I can't see very many situations that can't wait 48 hours.

I think the neutered comment is inappropriate. There are certain policies and procedures that you will follow as moderators - work within those and you have our full support. Warnings, locking threads, etc - fine and dandy. Editing and deleting - wouldn't be prudent, not gonna do it, it's bad!

Spark HW Bush

Spark

------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here


[This message has been edited by Spark (edited 01-28-2001).]
 
Spark, if a moderator feels Very strongly that a thread should be deleted, rather than simply locked, would moving it into this forum be acceptable? That way you or Mike could see the thread, and move it back to the forum it came from if you must.
 
No doubt Don should have saved copies of everything he deleted. Did he? Did you ask him whether he did before you unbanned Chariot, Spark? Have you asked me whether I saved any of it before it was deleted? Does it make any difference whether copies of the deleted posts exist or not?

After all three moderators who are following a problem agree there's a problem and agree what should be done about it is there a need to get a fourth opinion?

Is there any reason at all why Bladeforums should have moderators?

-Cougar :{)
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Cougar Allen:
No doubt Don should have saved copies of everything he deleted. Did he?</font>
Nope, he sure didn't
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> Did you ask him whether he did before you unbanned Chariot, Spark?</font>
Yes, I did.
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> Have you asked me whether I saved any of it before it was deleted? </font>
No - but you've had plenty of time to volunteer this information in this thread now, haven't you?

I'm not going to run around asking every moderator if they, perchance, have saved a thread that someone else deleted or edited - it's the responsibility of the one who did the editing or deleting to have done so. Again, in my opinion they shouldn't have been deleted in the first place and I've yet to see anything remotely resembling a reason why they should have.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Does it make any difference whether copies of the deleted posts exist or not?</font>
Yes, quite frankly, it does. If a moderator is overstepping their authority or "pulling a McClung" then they don't belong here. Sorry - thems the breaks. Deleting what exactly was said turns the entire situation into "he said, she said" - and without something that we can't point to, saying "This is why X was banned", we are left without justification.

The members aren't sheep. They aren't going to just sit there and go "Baaaaaaahhhhhhh whatever you say baaaahhhhhh." It's easy for them to get riled up over all kinds of machts nichts crap and I don't know about you guys, but my time is better spent on things other than fighting fires on seperate sites. Look at the current Lucky Dog situation if you need an example of how a little stupidity can be expanded into a "conspiracy."

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">After all three moderators who are following a problem agree there's a problem and agree what should be done about it is there a need to get a fourth opinion?</font>

Sure there is. Want to debate about mob mentality? If 3 of your friends think it's a good idea to jump off a bridge, would you want a fourth opinion?

Sometimes people can't distance themselves from an argument - I have that problem myself. But when it comes to banning a member or editing / deleting threads Mike and myself are the final arbiters. It's that simple.

We're the ones that will be held liable if something happens on the site - not you guys. As such we have guidelines we want you to follow, especially if you want to represent us or BladeForums.com as a whole (or in part).

I try to send every moderator a copy of my "Moderator Instructions" when they become a moderator. In them I get pretty verbose on what we do and don't expect from the moderators. I'll post a copy here tomorrow if some of you haven't received it.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Is there any reason at all why Bladeforums should have moderators?
-Cougar :{)
</font>
Let's not get into this discussion, you and I both know it's a specious question.

Spark


------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here


[This message has been edited by Spark (edited 01-29-2001).]
 
Kevin,

You knew exactly what I had and what I did not have when you banned him, not when you unbanned him.

You banned him based on the Threads that I gave you in that Chatroom, and that is that, what was deleted was primarily before that, I have no idea what you are talking about whatsoever.

The PROOF of that is, Cougar sent me an E-mail saying that Chariot was unbanned and that is how I found out about it. Again, I'm not trying to insist you are lying in this issue, but you banned him on the strength of what you saw was his DISRUPTION and nothing else.

And that is the question, when viewing Chariot's trolling disruption between the two forums, that is what tells the tale.

Apparently, he can do as he wishes as long as he throws some legitimate material out once in awhile, he is OK to start fires and there is nothing I will do about it in the future. Why? Because I can't now. You were wrong above when you said you have not neutered the control of a Moderator, in a very real way, you have. That can be a difference of opinion, quite frankly...it does not matter. If this continues, this place will degenerate and then someone will take steps to bring it back online. Those steps will be far more unpleasant. And they won't be coming from me.

I can't believe this.
 
I banned him on the basis that you and Cougar were screaming that he needed to be banned immediately. I did so and then went digging around to see what I could find. Unfortunately, you didn't leave me much of anything that justified it.

I even told you, in chat, that the thread you posted with excerpts from his posts wasn't good enough to ban him over and told you that I'd wished you hadn't deleted the posts because I didn't see anything worth banning. I also told you I was going to do some more digging IIRC.

Now that I'm at work, here's a copy of the Moderator Instructions I was talking about:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Being a good BladeForums.com Moderator, a checklist / guideline

INTRODUCTION
Thank you for becoming a part of the moderator team at BladeForums.com. With your help, we hope to better the knife industry as a whole, and provide the best, most accurate information to our members.

BladeForums.com operates on the laisse-faire system - we try to remain hands off and let the members take care of themselves and each other. As such, they tend to be self policing, and generally well behaved.

Unfortunately, that is not always the case. As such, as moderators it's your duty to try to keep things headed in the right direction.

A list of our rules can be found at this page:
http://www.bladeforums.com/rules.shtml - go there and familiarize yourself with them. I'm sure that everyone agree's that they are not very hard to follow.

Frequently Asked Questions can be found here -
http://www.bladeforums.com/faqs/ - these give a more detailed explanation of the in's and out's of the site - what we expect, what we do / don't want to see, things to do in Las Vegas, etc. It should answer some of the other questions you may have.

EVERY TEACHER WAS ONCE A STUDENT
Remember, no matter how inane the questions is, no matter how "stupid" it may seem, take the high road and answer it politely. Many of the people on the forums are from countries where English is not the primary or secondary language, so be patient. Also, be ready to admit when you were wrong, as we all still have something to learn.

As with everything else, feel free to lend your opinion, after all, it's part of being a good host. But set the example for the members of your forum and back it up with facts. Use anecdotes if you feel like it, everyone likes to see a practical example of just why "it's done this way for a reason", right?

Information works both ways. Just like you learn from the people on your forums, they are there to learn from you as well. So, do them a favor and get them involved:
  • Share a tidbit of information - whether it's a tip, trick or technique, you'd be surprised just what people don't know, or haven't thought about concerning the littlest things. You might learn something yourself... plus the more information you share, the better they will respond. You don't have to do this every day, but we'd like to see something of interest at least once a week from each moderator. If there are multiple moderators, you shouldn't have any problems with traffic on your forum - you'll be starting a bunch of conversations!
  • Ask questions - see what they do and don't know. Ask what they do and don't like. Make sure they know that their opinions count. You can use the forum to get information you can use for your own business or edification.
  • Give suggestions - No one said sit back and just watch the train wreck happen. If someone obviously doesn't know what they are talking about, set them straight. It's easier to correct bad information when it starts than when it's become ingrained as "truth" through repetition. Just be tactful while doing this.

Sometimes this will result in an argument breaking out. If that happens, and a moderator needs to step in, notify one of the other moderators on your forum, or Mike or myself, and we'll step in. It's been shown to be counter-productive if you make your statements in an argument and then lock the thread as if to say "So there! Nyaaaahhhhhh!", so don't do it. Let someone else be the heavy.

IT'S A MODERATOR'S LIFE
As previously stated, not everyone acts like an angel. Sometimes laisse-faire isn't going to cut it, and as a moderator you have to step in and take action. We'd appreciate it if all moderators would use restraint when acting within their position - if a member insults you, do not insult them back. If someone is rude, tell them so, and suggest that they modify their behavior. Private email warnings are fine as well, just make sure that you include the URL of the message in question and 'CC a copy of it to myself and Mike so that we can be kept abreast of what's going on. If public and private warnings aren't going to cut it, you might have to step in.

Should you have to take action, there are several options that you have. We'll begin with the links found at the bottom of each thread -
  • Close Topic - This is to be done if the post is sufficiently off topic, or inflammatory enough to warrant it being closed. We typically don't approve of this except when absolutely necessary, but use your best judgement. If flaming is getting out of hand, shut it down, warn all of the participants, and notify us.
  • Archiving / Moving the topic - Unless your forum gets huge, there's probably not going to be a need to archive the topics there, though occasionally you may find a thread that's so good that it warrants being saved. In that case, you should probably archive it. What's more likely to happen is that you'll find a post in your forum that needs to be moved elsewhere - like to the For Sale forums or to the Community center or something. Simply click on this link, and a screen will come up that will ask you what you would like to do: Archive or Move the topic. If you should choose to move the topic, please select the option to lock the thread in your forum, instead of having it deleted, it will prevent the "Where did my thread go?" questions.
  • Delete Topic - The final option. In discussions, this is not to be used unless absolutely necessary, the reason being so that we can refer to the post later should we need to ban that person from the site, or provide justification for banning. You can feel free to use this to delete duplicate threads and such, since everyone likes a tidy forum....
    biggrin.gif
    In the event that you feel it necessary to delete a post, we would appreciate being notified first. Sometimes a second opinion is needed to justify this action since the thread can not be brought back after it's gone.

These are not the only options you have. As a moderator, you can also -
Edit / Delete Post - This option may or may not be available depending on current forum settings. As a moderator, you have the power to edit or delete posts when necessary. Deleting posts is typically done when there are double or triple posts from impatient users. Do NOT delete posts because of their content unless we've been notified and have taken a look (see delete topic above). As for Editing content, the only time this should be done is to fix a "Scrolling Screen of Death", when someone makes a post that causes the screen to scroll sideways. In those instances, go ahead and edit the content to fix this. Remember, when you edit a post, make sure you state why you did so by jotting a note at the end, it will prevent arguments later.

Please do not edit the content of someone's message. As with the delete function, it will be hard for us to take action against a member if the post is no longer there or edited.

Again, if the situation starts to deteriorate, warn first, then take action. Use your own best judgement.

Should the situation get heated and you need a second opinion, please feel free to notify myself or Mike, and we'll be happy to look over anything.

We do have the ability to ban anyone from our site should the situation get completely out of control. This is the final option and only the administrators have this ability.

Again, thanks for being a part of the moderator team at BladeForums.com. We hope that we can help you as much as you help us, and are glad to have you as part of the family.

Spark
</font>

If anyone hasn't received this email, my apologies, but these are the policies for the forum.

There's no use crying over spilt milk. My decision has been made - what's gone is gone and whatever is left isn't worthy of banning. Unless you have something that you haven't posted yet - something that I can view in context - you've left me with no other choice.

This isn't just me, guys. Mike looked at this too, and just like me, he didn't see anything worth banning over.

So, let's use this as a lesson learned - don't Edit / Delete the content of posts unless 100% neccessary - and if you do, let's save a copy for later review.

Spark

------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here


[This message has been edited by Spark (edited 01-29-2001).]
 
We're making progress. I was laboring under the impression Chariot had been unbanned without any consultation at all.

At 12:29pm on 1-22 I emailed to question@bladeforums.com:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Is Chariot banned yet?

I see he was still posting this morning, posting trolls as fast as Don could delete them.... I could go into all kinds of detail about why we need to ban him, give you links to threads and all that, but I'm guessing you don't have the time for any of that.</font>

That email didn't bounce. Later I asked if there was any interest in the threads I had saved, in this thread.

A number of the most respected members of the tactical forums (who are not sheep) posted on the Chariot problem. All the members who saw the unbelievable situation going on in the FCA forum and expressed any opinion expressed the same opinion. Without members there would be no forums....

However, Chariot has finally taken warning and has been behaving himself since his suspension. Will that last? Time will tell....

We need to save copies of anything that gets deleted. We need to consult and communicate with each other. Most of all we need to respect the desires of the members. Bladeforums is not a democracy; neither is it an arbitrary dictatorship. If the will of the membership is ignored, if a cursory glance at a small part of a large problem is sufficient to overrule the unanimous will of the members ... it's very easy to make yourself undisputed dictator of an empty forum....

-Cougar :{)
 
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