Cheap ceramic rod provides sharper edge than Chosera 3000

L

Loren Jones

Joined
Jun 26, 2019
Messages
97
I have noticed this across several knives and several sharpening sessions with knives ranging from 154cm steel pocket knives to VG 10 kitchen knives to 1990s Chicago cutlery kitchen knives.

Sharpening angle is about 15°. I start with an 800 grit Chosera and develop a burr along the entire edge. I do this on both sides. I then do an alternating pattern of decreasing strokes, 10 per side, 8 per side....until I finish with several rounds of very light pressure single strokes alternating side to side.

I then do the same on the Chosera 3000.

After this the edge is sharp but will only roughly shave some but not all hairs.

I then run the knife about 5 alternating strokes on a cheap fine ceramic rod I bought at Woodcraft years ago (held at a 15 deg angle by a hole in a wooden base) and it is hair popping effortless shaving sharp.

Why? I don’t get it.

Am I somehow leaving some burr on with the stone and then the ceramic rod cleans it off? If that’s it I sure can’t fewl the burr.

Thoughts?
 
Difficult to say from your description. But the "about 15 degrees" may be a clue. You could be leaving a small burr on the first setup, and the Woodcraft setup is set at a slightly higher angle, which cuts off the burr as it makes a micro-bevel.

It would help if you had a good test -- such as your thumb -- to determine if the burr is gone, rather than rely on a certain number of strokes.
 
Twindog said:
Difficult to say from your description. But the "about 15 degrees" may be a clue. You could be leaving a small burr on the first setup, and the Woodcraft setup is set at a slightly higher angle, which cuts off the burr as it makes a micro-bevel.

It would help if you had a good test -- such as your thumb -- to determine if the burr is gone, rather than rely on a certain number of strokes.
Click to expand...

When I come off each stone I can’t feel any burr on either side with my thumb.

I can’t see any burr with 3x loupes.

Doesn’t mean it’s not there.

Put it this way, should I expect a hair popping edge on VG10 off a Chosera 3000 if I’m doing everything right?

Any other good techniques recommended for burr removal?

As far as “about 15 degrees” I base that on measuring a ballpark starting angle with my phone level app. I certainly am not a pro freehand sharpener so there’s no way I can very accurately sharpen to a given angle. I think I get close to what I shoot for but I’m sure it’s not exact. But I’ve wondered exactly the same thing, is there someway that I’m leaving burr on the edge with my stones and the ceramic rod pulls it off
 
Last edited:
Rule things out.

Rule out angle inconsistency.

Not hitting all the way to the apex.

Crushing the edge, too much pressure on the 3k.

Also your edge should be brought up on a 800-1500 grit and sharp before refining on the 3k.

3k is a polishing stone, not for apexing alone.
 
When you use the Chosera 3000, you are freehanding at an approximate angle. When you use your Woodcraft jig you are using a guided system. Unless you are experienced, a guided system is likely to produce better, more consistent results. This is probably what you are seeing.

But it's not easy to tell you anything for sure because there are so many variables at play. I've taught a couple people how to use a Sharpmaker who could not hold their blade vertically. They thought their blade strokes were perfectly perpendicular, but they were actually holding the blade at an angle.

The Chosera should give you a great edge, provided the stone is in good shape. You said you are getting a burr along the full edge on both sides and then gradually removing it. So it sounds like the stone is good.

My guess is that you are not holding a consistent angle when you are freehanding, a common problem for people who haven't developed excellent muscle memory for a particular angle. If you have a 1.5 inch wide blade, the difference in the height of the spine off the stone between a 15 degree angle and a 17 degree angle is about 5 hundredths of an inch. If you're wobbling between .05 inches above and below the 15 degree angle, you're actually sharpening at between 13 and 17 degrees. Add in the approximate angle measurement from your phone, and a lot can go wrong.

You could try to mount your stone on a ramp (make one from wood) that is 15 degrees -- or whatever angle you want. Put the Chosera on the ramp and hold your blade perfectly horizontal as you sharpen. It's like a Sharpmaker, but horizontal.

Stropping can add a noticeable increase in sharpness if you can hold the proper combination of angle and pressure and if you start with a clean apex. But it, too, is a bit of an art. It takes practice and careful observation and measurement. I like 1 micron diamond paste on leather.

But it sounds like you have the basics down.:thumbsup:
 
Are you finishing your use of the 3000 stone using only edge-trailing strokes? If not try that. JIS 3000 is not extremely fine (a fine ceramic may be more refining) but it should put your edge way past scrape shaving when you're done with it.
 
DeadboxHero said:
Rule things out.

Rule out angle inconsistency.

Not hitting all the way to the apex.

Crushing the edge, too much pressure on the 3k.

Also your edge should be brought up on a 800-1500 grit and sharp before refining on the 3k.

3k is a polishing stone, not for apexing alone.
Click to expand...
I definitely apex and develop a burr on the 800 before I go with alternating light pressure strokes to even it out. I can feel the burr with my thumb the whole length of the blade. I use pretty firm pressure initially if I’m needing to remove a lot of metal, but then I back off to light pressure then just minimal pressure at the end. On the 3k I do the same and feel the burr there before moving to light strokes.

I don’t have a stone between the two but I didn’t think it was really needed. I could be wrong.

If I wasn’t apexing or if I was crushing the edge then I can’t conceive that 5 light strokes on a ceramic rod would make it get really sharp.

And to be clear it’s sharp off the stone. Passes all the paper cut tests just fine. It just isn’t super shaving sharp, more lack rough shaving sharp. After the rod it’s super shaving sharp.
 
Twindog said:
When you use the Chosera 3000, you are freehanding at an approximate angle. When you use your Woodcraft jig you are using a guided system. Unless you are experienced, a guided system is likely to produce better, more consistent results. This is probably what you are seeing.

But it's not easy to tell you anything for sure because there are so many variables at play. I've taught a couple people how to use a Sharpmaker who could not hold their blade vertically. They thought their blade strokes were perfectly perpendicular, but they were actually holding the blade at an angle.

The Chosera should give you a great edge, provided the stone is in good shape. You said you are getting a burr along the full edge on both sides and then gradually removing it. So it sounds like the stone is good.

My guess is that you are not holding a consistent angle when you are freehanding, a common problem for people who haven't developed excellent muscle memory for a particular angle. If you have a 1.5 inch wide blade, the difference in the height of the spine off the stone between a 15 degree angle and a 17 degree angle is about 5 hundredths of an inch. If you're wobbling between .05 inches above and below the 15 degree angle, you're actually sharpening at between 13 and 17 degrees. Add in the approximate angle measurement from your phone, and a lot can go wrong.

You could try to mount your stone on a ramp (make one from wood) that is 15 degrees -- or whatever angle you want. Put the Chosera on the ramp and hold your blade perfectly horizontal as you sharpen. It's like a Sharpmaker, but horizontal.

Stropping can add a noticeable increase in sharpness if you can hold the proper combination of angle and pressure and if you start with a clean apex. But it, too, is a bit of an art. It takes practice and careful observation and measurement. I like 1 micron diamond paste on leather.

But it sounds like you have the basics down.:thumbsup:
Click to expand...
Thanks for the reply. I am sure my muscle memory is not that excellent. I do my best but it’s not great. The strokes I’m taking on the ceramic rod are very light and gentle but perhaps it’s lining the edge up more smoothly and consistently or perhaps it’s cleaning off a bit of burr.

I will continue to work on technique but I may try a strop as well.

I thought about a ramp and may try that too

Thanks
 
Mr.Wizard said:
Are you finishing your use of the 3000 stone using only edge-trailing strokes? If not try that. JIS 3000 is not extremely fine (a fine ceramic may be more refining) but it should put your edge way past scrape shaving when you're done with it.
Click to expand...
I do edge trailing on the finishing strokes but I’m using a back and forth motion before that. Like what is described in the seven secrets of sharpening sticky. Japanese style motion I guess or some variation of that.
 
Yeah, that's what I meant. I don't have another quick suggestion. I don't have the Chosera 3000 but by reputation it is an excellent stone and at that level you should have a good arm-hair-shaving edge. If you're talking about face-shaving then your result is more expected; a straight razor with a JIS 3000 finish and no stropping would be quite harsh I think, without having tried it.
 
Be mindful of your single pass strokes, especially the light ones. I know my angle can waffle a bit when I'm focusing on the pressure more than anything. I've surely caught myself messing up on those stone de-burring strokes. Everything feels great, a couple more passes and ...what the Hell happened? For me, it's angle control. When we're getting things this sharp it only takes a pass or two to mess things up.

Cutting paper is easy and it can be misleading. The sound tells you more than the cut itself. The term "hair popping" I think causes confusion as well. A sharp knife will shave arm hair just gliding along the skin. There might be some scrape on the skin but no force is needed and it should be smooth. Feel it. Pay attention to the feedback and be honest with yourself about what you're experiencing. I've many times told myself I was experiencing something I wasn't or stretched it a bit in my mind. Just leads to long term frustration. Not saying you're doing that, just sharing my own decade's-long experiences. :)
 
Loren Jones said:
I definitely apex and develop a burr on the 800 before I go with alternating light pressure strokes to even it out. I can feel the burr with my thumb the whole length of the blade. I use pretty firm pressure initially if I’m needing to remove a lot of metal, but then I back off to light pressure then just minimal pressure at the end. On the 3k I do the same and feel the burr there before moving to light strokes.

I don’t have a stone between the two but I didn’t think it was really needed. I could be wrong.

If I wasn’t apexing or if I was crushing the edge then I can’t conceive that 5 light strokes on a ceramic rod would make it get really sharp.

And to be clear it’s sharp off the stone. Passes all the paper cut tests just fine. It just isn’t super shaving sharp, more lack rough shaving sharp. After the rod it’s super shaving sharp.
Click to expand...
The ceramic is more forgiving to angle inconsistences and can hit the apex better and remove the "base" of the burr left behind.

You don't need a stone in-between the 800 and 3k

If you're making a burr on the 3k but not getting sharp on the stone when deburring but getting sharp off the ceramic than that means you're not hitting consistent angles to clean the apex when deburring off the stone.

Slow down, light touch. Same angle. Clean the burr off without angle change and without rounding over the edge underneath
 
Mr.Wizard said:
Yeah, that's what I meant. I don't have another quick suggestion. I don't have the Chosera 3000 but by reputation it is an excellent stone and at that level you should have a good arm-hair-shaving edge. If you're talking about face-shaving then your result is more expected; a straight razor with a JIS 3000 finish and no stropping would be quite harsh I think, without having tried it.
Click to expand...
Yeah. I don’t plan to try face shaving with a kitchen knife...hahaha I’m no Crocodile Dundee
bucketstove said:
Hi,
You already got the rods to finish the job, just keep using them :)
Click to expand...
thats what I keep telling myself. If it’s working why wonder what’s wrong...

And the rods are excellent for daily maintenance and touch ups.
 
You should be able to easily shave hair in either direction from an 800 grit stone.
 
So I just took the knife in question and did some edge trailing stropping type strokes, about 20 per side alternating, and the knife is if anything a touch sharper than it was straight off the ceramic rod.

I keep thinking it must be that the rod is pulling residual burr off the edge that I’m somehow failing to get off with the stone. I could be wrong. But if I’m right I’m wondering why my process is leaving burr on the edge.

Thanks for all the insights
 
Loren Jones said:
So I just took the knife in question and did some edge trailing stropping type strokes, about 20 per side alternating, and the knife is if anything a touch sharper than it was straight off the ceramic rod.

I keep thinking it must be that the rod is pulling residual burr off the edge that I’m somehow failing to get off with the stone. I could be wrong. But if I’m right I’m wondering why my process is leaving burr on the edge.

Thanks for all the insights
Click to expand...
Angle consistency
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top