cheap katanas

S

Spun 1

Joined
Dec 11, 2005
Messages
14
Ok want real information here not sword snob snubs.I have a katana by museum replicas that costs $175.made by windlass.i believe it is spring steel
and is sharp enough to shave hair. I have some m. a. training and laid two fingars open to the bone practicing a kata. what are your feelings on this type sword,and that being said how about the $30 katanas by edge or united cutlery.
 
I don't know much about swords but i know enough about United. STAY AWAY from them. Most of them are junk. There great for hanging from a wall though:rolleyes: Thats the most activity those swords should see
 
Cutting flesh really isn't all that difficult but if you tried to chop into something hard your blade would probably break. I don't have any MA training, or own any swords yet for that matter, but I would suggest you check to make sure the tang/handle is built sturdily enough to handle the weight of the blade before you swing it around with any force. As far as $30 swords are concerned I would avoid them entirely unless all you're looking for is a display piece.
 
to my dismay a kickboxing buddy of mine i let the sword to used it as a machete to chop a trail in the woods. it came back no worse for wear
 
First: better than I could ever say it, a current SFI discussion on price vs quality: http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60244 You can pretty much disregard the rest of the post if you like.

A) What's the name of the particular model? Is it a Hanwei piece (if so it's likely the PK at that price level)? Or is it the Outworld katana which isn't a katana at all? Likely, since it's by MRL, it should work okay, and is tempered (usually) a little soft and through-hardened. However, this is just my opinion assuming it actually is made of decently high carbon steel and is heat treated adequately.... and the retailers/makers don't lie. Stainless steel is carbon steel too ;). Balance might also be an issue.
B) Sword snobs? So unless we agree with you we're sword snobs?
I'll say this: how much consistency and performance is pulled out of the materials, not to mention the quality of construction, polish, and geometry are almost entirely direct reflections of the price (not MSRP) - thus a custom smith's work is pretty much as good as it gets. Then there's the unsubstantial portion of the value - nihonto or not? Juyo token or nameless unpapered piece?
C) All production swords are shortcuts of some sort that lead to decreased overall quality (aesthetic or otherwise). This holds whether speaking of these cheap examples or Bugei Chinese-made blades.... the cheaper it is, generally, the worse the "katana". This disregards scams. Thus something on the order of 100-200 dollars is pretty much bottom-line functionality. The older-gen PK can handle very light targets, thin plastic bottles, pool noodles and occasionally even thin < 1 inch bamboo if the heat treat is decent - though this varies wildly - and if the skill of the practioner is sufficient. If there isn't enough "meat" behind the blade you have issues with support for the edge.

Some thoughts: the handle may be epoxied on if it isn't "full-tang" - this should be fine, decent epoxies are stronger than the wood they hold together :D. If riveted, this COULD work but I wouldn't consider it a katana. Not sure how you'd find this out without handle destruction, so ignore it if you wish. How thin is the blade and is there distal taper? Where is the COG and how does it feel during off-line thrusts and during cuts? Does it feel tip-heavy during motion? How strong is the handle - is there any rattling or fit issues? Is it comfortable?
 
I looked through the MRL site - the only katana I saw listed there that was $175 was the Outworld Katana - is this the one you have? If so, and the blade is made by Windlass, it's probably made well enough to survive being used as a machete. But like senoBDEC said, it's not a katana. It's hollow ground, the geometry is messed up, and only the curve says "katana" to anybody. You'd do as well (and be as wrong) to call it a saber. Cold Steel can sell you a decent real machete for $20, so it's not unreasonable for a $175 dollar piece to have a blade that matches that performance.

But a sword isn't a machete, and the distinction between them is subtle, and is often the cause of people saying "why do swords cost so much?" A large part of the differences is in geometry and heat treat. A blade that's fairly soft can still serve very well as a brush cutter - hard enough to go through softwood and brush, and soft enough to be quite durable. So the Windlass stuff can be used to cut things, sure. But if anyone who trains seriously with katana were offered one to practice with, I'd pay good money to see the look on his face.

It's easy to make a sword-like object that cuts. I've seen the wholesale sheets for various manufacturers of wallhangers and so-called "battle ready" swords. The profit margin can be tremendous. But they conform in few meaningful ways to historical swords. Can they be durable? Sure - just run them a bit soft. Can they be hard? Yup. But they'll be brittle. Can they be both? If you're willing to shell out more, that's certainly possible. A well-balanced spring temper, or a clay-based hardening routine costs money to do properly.

The Hanwei line and other Chinese sword lines manage to put out decently shaped swords, with heat treatments appropriate to the historical pieces they attempt to replicate. The cheapest of these is the PPK, and if that's what you have, then good for you. If you're in a sword-based MA, that's the least that any good instructor will (potentially) approve of. If you're in a hand-to-hand MA, then it's as likely as not that your instructor knows nothing about swords - why should he/she?

The United stuff is just nasty. Wallhangers. They snap if you hit things with them. Look up the Home Shopping Network broken sword clip. Same stuff, except the United stuff generally looks better (but costs more).

One last thing - what you call sword snobbery is simply an attempt to lead others into appreciating the subtleties of what is a very much misunderstood field. If you said, "I need something to cut brush with," the answer would be to get a machete, something cheap but useful. If you say, "I'm looking for a sword," then the tone changes, and admittedly becomes a bit pedantic, because the qualities required by a sword are much more subtle, nuanced and, ultimately, *expensive* than people realize.
 
Re: knife saber regarding "Sword snobbery" - while quite true there are plenty of sword snobs. Just go to any typical nihonto show :D. There is a reason though... often relatively uneducated people will come and ask to "study" with someone i.e. steal someone's knowledge in as quick and loose a fashion as possible.

Feels kind of disrespectful I suppose when you've spent some 20-30 years studying and translating what resources there are and trying to sift the truth from myth.....

Not so sure about the subtle difference between a machete and a sword... plenty of "machetes" were adaptations of swords after all.... although modern, perhaps thinner brush machetes bear little resemblance to SEA or African swords.

Also, the United Full Tang Katana (420 J) can actually be used for very light cutting... at least one of the iterations could. I wouldn't recommend it, but it was thick enough and soft enough... that said it's likely not a very good sword.
 
Yeah, I know there are tons of real sword snobs... but why advertise, right? Kind of like a Tesla fan admitting, "yeah... he spent the later part of his life feeding pigeons and trying to invent death rays..." Enough good to cover the bad, essentially.

Modern machetes are what I was referring to. Though I've resolved to get my hands on a falchion someday. And I like the look of the CS Latin machetes a lot.

I've handled several United pieces, but some of their simpler stuff has eluded me - I've only seen things like their Samurai 3000 series, the Blade sword... things like that.
 
Spun 1,

After reading then rereading your posts with a fair amount of care, I'm left wondering what your actually asking in this thread.

You already have your katana which you are using for practice (incidentally, I would generally suggest that a person with "some martial arts experience" to practice kata with something other than a shaving sharp sword - not a slight, just honest advice). Are you asking if other people with similar swords are happy with them?

My "feeling" on most $150-$300 swords available these days is that for wall-hangers or costume pieces, they're great! I don't really think of them as swords though, more like big kitchen knives wearing sword-shaped clothes.

To me a sword is a little more than an oversized knife. I'm not saying that these others can't cut, couldn't kill, or couldn't be used as a machete in a pinch. Unlike a knife (specifically one for EDC) which really has only three core requirements for me: the ability to cut well, durable construction, and safe operation, swords to me imply a certain amount of craft and mastery. For a sword, I go to Jim Hrisoulas, Angus Trimm, Rick Barrett, or any number of amazing craftsmen.

Don't get me wrong, I've got a few Museum Reps pieces sitting around, and they are perfectly fine for costume weaponry. They simply aren't swords to me.

But that's just me.


Enjoy your sword.
If you're going to practice kata, please consider invsting in high quality boken, or iato.


Happy holidays,
B.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top