Cheap knives with 440C blades?

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May 5, 2003
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I received a Smoky Mt. catalog in the mail today and thumbed through it quickly at lunch. A guy from work also got it and was commenting on a knife that looked similar to a beautiful high quality knife I just bought and had showed him.

I told the guy I bet there wasn't a dozen knives in the whole catalog that were made of anything other than bottom-end blade steels. We started looking.

There were a bunch of Smith & Wesson "Extreme Ops" knives listed as having 440C blade steel, and they all sold for around $30. I've seen them on web knife dealers' pages for around $20!

I'm always looking for inexpensive knives with good blade steels to recommend to non-knife-people so they might find out the difference for themselves. I usually suggest a Spyderco Native from Wally World.

Do these S&W knives merit recommendation for low-bucks knives with decent blades?

Thanks for any info,
desmobob
 
The heat treat is as important as the steel used. I personally would not trust the heat treat on any Taylor Cutlery knives.
 
Yep its all in the heat treat (look at what Buck does with their 420HC). 440C isn't bad at all if done properly. It was considered a "super steel" back in the 80s
 
I have a smith and wesson that is 440C but it doesn't seem to keep an edge all that well. I rarely use because I would have to sharpen it all the time. But for 20 bucks I can't say that it's not worth the money! Hell, I could barely make the sheath for twenty bucks myself much less the knife!
 
Remember that 440C from Asia is not the same as 440C from the U.S. 440C from China/Taiwan is basically 440A. Benchmade has made that distinction in their new Red Class knives.
 
The 440C on the SW knives does not compare to German 440A, if that helps. It will sharpen, but it tends to dull with VERY LITTLE use.
 
I should have known that when something seems too good to be true, it usually is....
I guess I won't recommend those knives.

Thanks for the info,
desmobob
 
Some of the more expensive Gerbers from the 60s-70s era were properly heat treated 440C and they were decent knives.

I have one from that era, a magnum folding hunter in a brass frame, and it's been a decent knife. (The ONLY decent Gerber I've ever owned.)
 
I bought one of those cheap really nice looking CHINA knives in a slip joint pattern, it will not hold an edge whatsoever. I really don't think there is any heat treatment at all on them....Like trying to sharpen lead..I figured I would give one a try though for beating around. It is in the junk drawer , not even a good beater..Fit and finish looks great thats about all though..I wouldn't recomend them to anyone..Just my oppinion
 
I've had Smith & Wesson knives that were absolute trash. One I just got rid of was a fake tanto (tanto on the left side, flat on the other). Actually, I don't think they're allowed to call them tantos, but it was difficult to tell which was supposed to be the cutting edge, the top or the bottom.

Other S&W knives have surprised me by holding an edge quite well. Overall, if you use a knife a lot and you regularly cut cardboard, rope or cord, I'd recommend getting a good steel. The Spyderco Native is probably the best bargain at Wal*Mart. If you only use a knife occasionally to open a bag of potato chips or a box, any knife should do. If you want one for protection, all S&W folders are inadequate, and most of the Spydercos are last ditch because of their smallish blades.

If you take a fairly heavy nylon nautical cord and tie it into knots, then slice through those knots, it won't take long to dull medium to good grades of steel. Premium grades undoubtedly will fare much better. Light serrations on a blade will help in this regard with lower grade steels and it's one reason I like Cold Steel Voyagers so much. Their serrations are light, their blades come sharper than most others, they're polished to reduce corrosion and they're easy to sharpen and hold their edges reasonably well. They're also light to carry, have good locking systems and are nearly indescructable. My only gripe with them is that they have no finger guards to keep the hand from slipping forward during a thrust.

As other companies replace mediocre steels with junk steel, companies like S&W begin to look a bit better. Not because it's quality is improving, but because the other knives are becoming worse. Still, for neck knives and so forth, all you need is a hard metal. Why pay for quality steel in a blade that's only going to be used in a last ditch defensive action. It doesn't make sense for people to criticize S&W's neck and boot knives, neither does it make sense to spend $60+ for a better quality version. If you've ever seen Cliffhanger, one of the good guys is hanging off a cliff and sticks the bad guy in the leg with his Spyderco and quickly turns the tables. Forget the fact that the guy probably used his knife for many other things besides sticking bad guys in the leg. At that moment, any easily opened knife would have done the job.

One of the best deals on Smoky Mountain's site (and in their catalog) is the S&W Homeland Security Tanto. For thirty bucks it does just about anything from clearing away small patches of brush to chopping kindling to heavy prying (emergency use) to self defense. Yes, the ad says 440C, but so far edge retention hasn't been a problem. Two have been given as gifts, and feedback on them (both recipients are avid outdoorsmen) has been very positive. This knife comes with a sharpening stone and a very durable sheath. (Frost Cutlery makes a cheap copy of this knife for about ten bucks, and though it's absolute garbage, it wouild be much more servicable in an emergency than most folders. I have one of these pieces of crap in the trunk of my car because in a bad situation, it could be worth much more than ten bucks!)

oiknife_overview.jpg

oiknife_frostslogo.jpg

Just about any knife can be useful in a pinch. This used and abused Mora is still quite
servicable. Unfortunately, in our "disposable" society, many people get rid of their knives
well before the stage shown.
 
Someone who does the "cheaper but good" is KaBar with their Dozier folders. They have AUS-8, I believe, and it's done quite well, as far as I can tell. For $20, they would be an excellent way to introduce folks to a step up in quality. A Buck 110 is another good knife which gives much more value than it's low price would imply.

Over that, I would go with the Spyderco Native from Wal-Mart, as you stated. From there, I think a Kershaw is the next step up in price that I would feel comfortable recommending, with the Leek, Scallion, and Chive.

Daniel
 
I've just recently been playing with some new Boker Plus "Military" folders. They are made in China and marked "440C". They are inexpensive, listing for $35 to $50, depending on size. I used the small one for a week and passed it on to my son to beat up on a construction crew. I'm playing with the large now. They both came nicely sharp with good fit and finish and the edge holding is very impressive.
 
Now the Buck 110 and the Native at wallyworld are both well worth the money. I would reccomend those to anyone for the price and Quality...
 
Remember that 440C from Asia is not the same as 440C from the U.S. 440C from China/Taiwan is basically 440A. Benchmade has made that distinction in their new Red Class knives.

Nonsense. Cheap knives labelled 440C may underperform either because of poor heat treat or possibly incorrectly labelled alloy.
add: But it is quite possible to buy good knives with properly labelled steel heat treated properly.

Your example is the opposite of your theory. Benchmade Red Class knives in 440C are heat treated to Rockwell C 58-60. If they reach anything over 57 they cannot be 440A because 440A only reaches 57 Rockewell C.
 
if you do a search on smith and wesson knives you won't find many glowing recommendations. nothing will sour a new knife person quicker than a crappy knife that won't take an edge and won't hold an edge. there are just too many reasonably priced american made knives, like the 110 and the native out there to go with poo. just my .02, ahgar
 
I bought a friend a $ 30.00 wally world 110 for his B-Day he opened the box and said wow I'll bet this cost a few bucks, I said yeah its a USA made buck, very hefty knife for all those deer you will be skinning. He was very happy with it and that was three years ago and many skinned Bucks with the Buck , for not many Bucks..Mike
 
Nonsense. Cheap knives labelled 440C may underperform either because of poor heat treat or possibly incorrectly labelled alloy.
add: But it is quite possible to buy good knives with properly labelled steel heat treated properly.

Your example is the opposite of your theory:jerkit:. Benchmade Red Class knives in 440C are heat treated to Rockwell C 58-60. If they reach anything over 57 they cannot be 440A because 440A only reaches 57 Rockewell C.

Not true. I called Benchmade and asked them why the steel chart in the '05 catalog lists 440C as having .95-1.20% carbon and starting in the '06 catalog 440C is listed as having only .75%. I was told that the 440C now being used in the red class of knives is of Asian origin and their steel has a different carbon content. I think Benchmade knows what they're talkng about. After all, it's their knives we're talking about.:p
 
Not true. I called Benchmade and asked them why the steel chart in the '05 catalog lists 440C as having .95-1.20% carbon and starting in the '06 catalog 440C is listed as having only .75%. I was told that the 440C now being used in the red class of knives is of Asian origin and their steel has a different carbon content. I think Benchmade knows what they're talkng about. After all, it's their knives we're talking about.:p

Good enough. It isn't 440C per Benchmade. (Wish they'd put that in writing on their website where I could find it.)
But still not the same as 440A if the BM hardness spec is correct. (0.75%carbon is at the top end of the 440A composition and the bottom of the 440B composition.) Carpenter Technologies, who makes the real McCoy 440A says it cannot be hardened to Benchmade's spec. Carpenter says that even their 440B only goes to 59. Benchmade cites 59-60.

So something is not matching. Either the BM hardness spec is incorrect, or the Chinese have a heat treat that takes 440A/B to a higher hardness than the US steel maker can take it, or they got steel that is better than 440A/B. Normally, in a situation like this, I would suspect option 1 as being true, ie the spec is incorrect.

Haven't read any complaints from Benchmade red class owners. From thir reports, it performs like 440C is supposed to perform. I don't have a red class in 440C. But I do have a Chinese Buck that is supposed to be 440A but has a measured (by me in the engineering lab) hardness of 58. 440A isn't supposed to get that hard. Perhaps the normal automatic supposition that the Benchmade spec is wrong is not correct.
 
if you do a search on smith and wesson knives
you won't find many glowing recommendations. nothing will sour a new
knife person quicker than a crappy knife that won't take an edge and
won't hold an edge.
One of the worst aspects of S&W folders is that the vast majority are
linerlocks. I don't care how good the steel is, I think the work "tactical"
and "linerlock" are incompatible terms. I've seen a number of S&Ws that
hold an edge just fine in a 440 range, but I wouldn't trust any linerlock
that didn't have a backup lock system like Columbia River's. It's one
reason that the only Smith knives I would trust are their ones with
frame locks, which I trust a little more. The only Smith frame lock
that I have, however, has a bad news, good news sort of thing.
The bad news is that I can never get the blade sharp, no matter
how I try. The good news is that cutting jobs don't normally dull
it because it's aready dull to begin with.

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This S&W has a fairly strong frame lock, but it's
blade will never be very sharp, unless you luck out
and get a good batch.
 
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