cheap system only for rebeveling

M

Marblo

Joined
Mar 21, 2014
Messages
45
Hi,
I would like to buy some sharpening system which I would use only for rebeveling. I think Lansky could do the job very well but it can go as low as +-17°. I would need to go to 10-11°° at some knifes because the bevel is very asymmetrical out of factory. I have found only Edge pro which could do the job but its very expensive. So is there a sharpening system which can set 10-15°?
Thanks for the help :)
 
Freehand is the way to go. It takes a little bit to get used to it but once you get it down, you basically are unlimited with the angles you can get. Harbor freight also has a 1x30 inch belt sander that I've heard is a pretty good deal
 
Depending on the size/width of the blades you're re-bevelling, the lower spec'd limits of guided clamps may not be relevant anyway. For example, the Lansky's marked angle settings are only accurate as measured at the immediate front edge of the clamp. Any blade edge that extends beyond it will sharpen up at an angle lower than the marked setting used. I measured & used some trig calculations to figure this out, when using my Lansky clamp to re-bevel the main spear blade on a Victorinox SAK. The edge of the blade extended approximately 3/8" beyond the clamp's front edge, and the resulting angle when using the '17' slot on the clamp actually turned out to be just below 15° per side. Very wide blades, like large kitchen/chef's knives, will sharpen up at angles much, much lower.

Having said the above, I don't know if any clamped setup will go as low as 10°/side on more typically-sized EDC blades. Some clamps may get somewhat lower if used in conjunction with a bench stone, instead of with the guided-rod hones. Used with a bench stone, by sliding the clamp along the tabletop surface next to the stone, the clamp is more out of the way if using a diagonally-oriented sharpening stroke. That sometimes can allow a lower sharpening angle, depending only on the thickness of the front portion of the clamp, which may otherwise get in the way. You can elevate the stone as needed, in relation to the clamp, to get the angle as low as possible without actually grinding against the clamp itself.

BTW, I have re-bevelled many blades of ~3/4"-1" width using the lowest marked slot on my Lansky and/or Gatco clamped systems. I didn't measure the actual resulting angles, but if the bevel widths are any indication (~1/8" or so on a Buck 110-sized blade), I'd bet most of them were down around 12°/side or maybe a little lower. The lasting impression left is that these systems will go quite lower than what the marked settings imply, depending on blade width.


David
 
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Typically what I do now days for blades that I want a more acute angle for is use my DMT Aligner or DMT aligner clamp with a benchstone and get the most acute angle possible and than I drop it down a bit lower by free hand. Only done this a few times so far but it works good as the guided part will be doing the blunt of the work and from there all I have to do is fine tune it to the angle I want.

Beyond that go with Obsessed With Edges advice, it seems it may be the most reliable way to go about it on the cheap. Just pick up the diamond stone kit or at least one diamond stone to do the reprofile work.
 
Thank you guys for all the help. Ive been really thinking about it and Ill maybe get edge pro.. Btw. are any of you guys familiar with Ganzo G710? I own one and it doesnot cut well altough its razor sharp. I have there about 19° convexed edge with 25° microbevel and Im not sure if lets say 15° bevel would help because the blade it self is pretty wide.
 
It's expensive, but there is a low angle attachment for the wicked edge that allows sharpening as low as 10 degrees per side.
Since you said cheap, I would go for the belt sander mentioned above. Another option would be the work sharp ken onion, which is basically a mini belt sander for around 140$.
 
Marblo said:
Thank you guys for all the help. Ive been really thinking about it and Ill maybe get edge pro.. Btw. are any of you guys familiar with Ganzo G710? I own one and it doesnot cut well altough its razor sharp. I have there about 19° convexed edge with 25° microbevel and Im not sure if lets say 15° bevel would help because the blade it self is pretty wide.
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Are these inclusive angles, or per side? If per side, that's pretty thick; especially with a 25° microbevel (50° inclusive). Anything above 40° inclusive just won't cut very well after the apex loses it's crispness. And if the convex is taken all the way to the edge (to the start of the microbevel) the actual edge angle may be even wider than assumed. Cutting always gets better when angles are taken down to ~30-35° inclusive (15-17.5° per side) and lower; often much better.

If the angles mentioned are the inclusive values and the edge isn't cutting well, something else is going on, like burring/edge rolling. Edges that thin wouldn't hold up well anyway, in all but the best of steels. Softer steels would roll at the edge, and harder steels would likely chip.


David
 
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Well, it is per side. I know that 25� microbevel is a lot, but I have this angle on other knifes, for example Rat-1 and this knife cuts much better, but there is 15� bevel. What do you think is the best "range" between bevel and microbevel? I noticed that lot of people use 5� >for example 20� microbevel and 15� bevel, 15� microbevel and 10� bevel and so on.. Btw. Do you have experience with Edge pro? I saw lot of people put magnets under the table where you hold the knife so the knife does not fall off when you release it. How can those magnets can be big? Just ordered edge pro, I hope i will be satisfied :)

marblo
 
Marblo said:
Well, it is per side. I know that 25� microbevel is a lot, but I have this angle on other knifes, for example Rat-1 and this knife cuts much better, but there is 15� bevel. What do you think is the best "range" between bevel and microbevel? I noticed that lot of people use 5� >for example 20� microbevel and 15� bevel, 15� microbevel and 10� bevel and so on.. Btw. Do you have experience with Edge pro? I saw lot of people put magnets under the table where you hold the knife so the knife does not fall off when you release it. How can those magnets can be big? Just ordered edge pro, I hope i will be satisfied :)

marblo
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I personally wouldn't see any benefit going any wider than 40° inclusive with the microbevel; cutting performance drops off a cliff, getting any wider. I know lots of folks here have some pretty specific ideas about angles for primary/secondary and microbevels, but I tend to believe it's overblown for most typical uses anyway. Most modern steels can easily handle inclusive angles at 30° and, if using a micro at all, I wouldn't go much wider than 35° inclusive. Anything wider might be useful for blades of softish steel that take a real beating regularly (chopping wood/batoning/etc). But, if using the knife for typical cutting chores, it really isn't necessary (and won't cut very well either).

(I don't use microbevels at all, BTW. Never really feel the need for it.)


David
 
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I have to agree with modern knives being able to handle 30 inclusive angles, I have used the lowest angle my DMT Aligner has allowed almost exclusively for a few months for everything so the edges are around 17-15 on each side by their estimates and for the most part I use lower end steels and they have all held up quite well. The knife steels that see the most use are my SAK's stainless, Opinel's carbon steel, 440a, and 8cr13mov they have all held those acute angles quite well and I don't put a microbevel on them. But I have found going higher on the angles decreases performance significantly.

I only just now started playing with some slightly more acute angles on my practice knife before rolling them out to my other knives so I can't comment on how acute these knives will go before I run into issues.
 
Wow, thats awesome, I will try those such low angles. I have about 10 folders (aus-8,8c13mov.... but I plan to buy BM 710 - D2 steel).. Here in Czech Republic everybody tells me that those angles are too low and the knife wont stay sharp for a long time.. Why do you not use microbevels? I love it. Even the knife is pretty dull, it just takes couple of strokes on a fine ceramic rode to get it pretty sharp - I use 900grit for final sharpening EDC blades.
 
Off hand I think Buck and Victorinox shoots for 15 degrees per side, 30 inclusive in their angles to give you an example. The reason most people don't recommend those types of angles is because the average person needs a sharpened pry bar, doesn't want or need an extremely sharp knife (I've had people declare my knives "too sharp" as most members here probably have), and the more obtuse angles hold up better to extreme abuse which your not suppose to do with a knife.

I personally don't use microbevels yet as I am still trying to master the art of sharpening. I've gotten pretty good by most standards being able to produce an edge that will slice or push cut newspaper depending on what stone I use (and newspaper sadly due to types of paper available) and can do so somewhat reliably but there is definitely more for me to learn. I might look into doing that in the future but for now I don't have any reason to as the angles I put on my knives don't give me any issues with what I've used them for so far.
 
Buck's edge grinds are targeted at 13-16° per side (26-32° inclusive), according to their 'Edge2000' specs (starting around 1999/2000, appropriately). They arrived at this after doing some extensive testing, and figured out a somewhat thinner edge grind cuts more efficiently for a longer time, than a thicker edge which lasts long (maintains it's shape), but didn't cut as well in the first place. It affirms the premise that the underlying geometry of the grind has a greater impact on useful edge life, than does the durability of the apex itself. A given steel will still wear at exactly the same rate, regardless of edge angle; it's a property of the steel itself. But the thinner geometry allows it to keep cutting reasonably well after the apex loses it's crispness, whereas a thicker/wider edge profile loses a lot in cutting performance, after the crisp apex is gone.


David
 
Thats correct, most people dont care how they use the knife.. Thats the reason why I dont borrow it to anyone. For example my father is capable of cutting something on concrete(!!)
 
Marblo said:
Thats correct, most people dont care how they use the knife.. Thats the reason why I dont borrow it to anyone. For example my father is capable of cutting something on concrete(!!)
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This is why I haven't bothered to sharpen my parents' kitchen knives, at all. They're both in their '80s, and won't likely acquire any new 'correct' habits about using a sharp knife; just more likely to hurt themselves (unsure grip & arthritis issues for both of them). My Dad slices apples on the ceramic tile countertop, by pushing the paring knife's blade through them (CLACK!! goes the blade on the tile). Makes me cringe to watch and hear it.


David
 
Exactly, my mother always says since my knifes are sharp why dont I sharpen her kitchen knives. She always cuts food on glass so sharpening the knives is kind of pointles and she does not believe me. Last time I borrowed small Victorinox to my father I found it later opened between metal electrician gear. Completely dull :barf: I look forward to Edge pro. How to put perfect microbevel on it? I guess I should sharpen the knife under desired bevel angle till it is very sharp and after that creating microbevel is a matter of only couple of freehand strokes on fine stone/rod, correct?

Michal
 
Marblo said:
Exactly, my mother always says since my knifes are sharp why dont I sharpen her kitchen knives. She always cuts food on glass so sharpening the knives is kind of pointles and she does not believe me. Last time I borrowed small Victorinox to my father I found it later opened between metal electrician gear. Completely dull :barf: I look forward to Edge pro. How to put perfect microbevel on it? I guess I should sharpen the knife under desired bevel angle till it is very sharp and after that creating microbevel is a matter of only couple of freehand strokes on fine stone/rod, correct?

Michal
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That's likely the best & easiest way to do it. Especially on a guided system, it should be extremely easy. And it's best to ensure the edge is very sharp beforehand, as you mentioned, so the microbevel can make the best of the underlying bevel's geometry (don't want to add a microbevel to an incomplete apex, for example).


David
 
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