cheap yet awsome jap katana?

J

Johnny6alive@sbcglob

Joined
Mar 19, 2007
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well i just handled a cheap misashi wind dragon (59.99us$)

TS-FTMUSK1_edit_540.jpg


(image taken form true swords since we are poor and dont own a camera >.<)

and i am so impressed... lol youd think "60 bucks for a sword? oh great its probaly gona be made of stainless steel..." but no!! its actully full tang, heat treated, high carbon steel >.<

now of course as they say the proof of the pudding is in the eating so my friend and i set up a tatami that we soaked overnight in the tub and went to cutting.

i was able to slice through the tatami cleanly not once but 4 times :D

(this tatami is suposedly the same as a human wrist)

i think i might get one of these as its actully worth its cheap price tag!!

im not quite sure but i think it has a natural hamon as well!! now dont take my word here as i dont know for sure if the blade has been differentially hardened.

you can also find an awsome review on this cheap beginners katana on

http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/cheap-samurai-swords-for-sale.html

as this is where my friend got the advise to buy it.

just thought yall would like to hear about this one.

~johnny
 
The sad reality is that with the furthered industrial capabilities, these inexpensive katanaesque swords have replaced the "wallhangers" of a decade ago. Indeed, you can now buy three decent stainless wallhangers for the price of one of these supposedly wonderful "beginner's" swords.

I have conversed with Paul Southren on the boards and I think he is probably providing some valuble insight but remember that he is also a retailer.

The Musashi and Ryumon stuff is coming over compliments of Master Cutlery. www.mastercutlery.com Some of the models are subjectively better than others but ask yourself how much care and quality could possibly be put into a sword that might cost $10 USD (if that) to actually produce. Have you ever wondered why you can buy a twenty function Chinese made Swiss-Army type knife at the 7-11 for $2.99? the same is very true of most of these swords.

Kudos to those that find real value in these. I read of many more that end up spending on these again and again before they finally buy something that was actually what they would have been better off starting with. Apart from a vauge visualization, most of these hardly represent what a few hundred dollars difference makes. So, they may buy four of five cheapies and decide to finally move up a notch. Often to the Cheness products that are a can of worms in of themselves. Having now moved on, they realize what the diffrences between what $50 and $200 is. the travesty continues and they soon learn their $200 sword was only a bargain because it had a "decent" blade. what to do now? Put $200-$300 worth of amateur fixes into it?

I am no saint. I purchased a Hanwei PK in 2003. It has cotton ito, plastic same and menuki and is glued together. I am not really a katana person but had no thoughts that I would be getting more than my $139 worth. This sword only comes out of its bag a few times a year. It cuts a lot of mats when it does, gets cleaned and then back in the bag.

Let us know how it holds up over four years of even occasional cutting. Ask your friend if he has looked inside yet. Update us on when the first "problems" develop.

What have you handled other than this to make a comparison by? Just curious.

Cheers

Hotspur; I really am but someone else masquerades here with that name
 
you bring up a nice argument.

i just saw tom (my freind who owns this one) and we dismantled the sword to check it out. The tsuka core is wood (thank god its not plastic lol)

the blade only had a single meguki peg holding it in but the blade had been glued quite tightly with an epoxy resin. (no fear of the blade coming out of the handle)

i cant be sure, but the blade metal is either 1045 or 1050 carbon steel.

we have been hacking all day and so far not even a single scratch has been permently done to it. wd40 got the streaks and stuff off it.

(half mats full mats and water bottles are among our victems lol)

as to one of those sub 300 dollar swords i.e ,hanwei,cheness. of those i have handled a cheness 9260 spring steel tachi.

( i own this one, got it as a present. this is my fave sword haha >.>)

http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/tenchi.html

thats a review of the tenchi.

thats the only other cheapy i have handled and it compares to the 600-1000$ swords that have been diffrenetialy hardened.

the real blades that i have handeled belong to my uncle who is an avid collector (just three of his over 20 sword collection run over 50k$ >.<)

im not gona try to explain them as i am ignorent as to their properties.

(lol im actully a knife guy and not a sword collector)

but to get an idea most of them have a rating of Juyo Token in the NBTHK rating system. if that all sounds like giberish to you then basicly the smith who made the sword is quite better than average.

lol well im gona go back to my balisongs.
 
Thanks for the heads up. I got one of these after reading your post and like it. I have no way to compare it to a quality sword, but for the price it is surprisingly well made and does have a reasonable edge on it. I am kicking myself, though, because after I ordered I noticed they had one being discontinued (the Sea Dragon) for 10 bucks cheaper.
 
I think there's a problem of worldview at work here. I don't see any reason one should feel it is necessary to make apologies for a functional sword, no matter how inexpensive. The standard of craft for swords of this type may certainly be the traditionally made Japanese katana, but the standard of function for a contemporary sword need be only whether it will cut, thrust, and remain intact during these operations.
 
Sharp Phil said:
I think there's a problem of worldview at work here. I don't see any reason one should feel it is necessary to make apologies for a functional sword, no matter how inexpensive. The standard of craft for swords of this type may certainly be the traditionally made Japanese katana, but the standard of function for a contemporary sword need be only whether it will cut, thrust, and remain intact during these operations.
Click to expand...
Personally, I think functional safety is precisely the problem I am concerned about here. Lower-budget katanas (the Japanese style of mounting is notoriously complex, mechanically, to put together properly for functional purposes - which, incidentally, seem to dictate overall aesthetics as well. Any large, relatively forward-weighted blade with a hidden tang suffers from these issues).

It is true that a barely functional Japanese-styled sword can be produced on the cheap, but unless the entire handle is made of a excellent wood, and the tang area is filled with epoxy to compensate for poor quality in mounting.... (e.g. the original Paul Chen/Hanwei PK). Every part of the Japanese mount has a specific function and needs to be made specific to each blade and then requires a decent craftsman to mount it properly as well as a skilled user who is also able to perform maintenance and safety checks on the sword.

Much easier to just get a kukri or a good, slab-sided (kitchen knife-style) falchion with brass rivets on the cheap than it is a katana.
No mystique about the Japanese swords/polearms, just somewhat ingenious solution to a materials problem that requires a high degree of specificity in fit and finish.
 
Wally Hofstetter (sp?) does upgraded fitting for the CAS Iberia cutting grade swords and he apparently thinks that they are pretty good production grade blades. Not ure how much they cost, but coming form a guy who makes his own swords and reconditions the old ones, that sounds like a pretty good recomendation
 
I had a question about this sword. I see that you posted a picture of the sword with a black handle. When I look to purchase one of these all I see is a handle that is light blue and white. I looked mostly at trueswords.com.
Where can I find the sword with a black handle?

Thanks
 
Hi,
Also, can you tell me if the hand guard is metal or plastic. I would definitely assume you looked at this aspect of it.
Thanks
 
JGarth said:
Hi,
Also, can you tell me if the hand guard is metal or plastic. I would definitely assume you looked at this aspect of it.
Thanks
Click to expand...

The tsuba (handguard) is metal. It's not great metal, just cast zinc alloy, but it gets the job done (yes, I have a couple of Musashis).:cool:


Anyone interested should check out musashiswords.com. They have a whole selection of swords in various price ranges (including several other models in the same range as this sword), with free U.S. shipping.
 
Scott,
Thanks...for responding.
I ordered a Cheness Oniyuri. I thought that was the best "compromise" of functionality, appearance , and price.
Probably be here Mon or Tue.
I think I might order the Musashi Classic Gladius, the Wind Dragon is out of stock. The research I did leads me to believe the only diff in that and the Wind Dragon is the color of the handle and scabbard. I'm not used to the Japanese names yet, but I'll get there.
Thanks again...
JGarth
 
JGarth said:
Scott,
Thanks...for responding.
I ordered a Cheness Oniyuri. I thought that was the best "compromise" of functionality, appearance , and price.
Probably be here Mon or Tue.
I think I might order the Musashi Classic Gladius, the Wind Dragon is out of stock. The research I did leads me to believe the only diff in that and the Wind Dragon is the color of the handle and scabbard. I'm not used to the Japanese names yet, but I'll get there.
Thanks again...
JGarth
Click to expand...

Cool. Cheness makes a fine sword. Their 9260 line are especially tough. Good choice. The Classic Gladius ought to be very much comparable to the WInd Dragon.:cool:
 
Scott,
Even though I'm kinda tall (6-2), I wanted a shorter shorter one for my first sword. I'm going order that Classic Gladius later this week.
Thanks for the info.
JGarth

Added:
True Swords have the Musashi Wind Dragon back in stock as of this morning. I ordered one. It probably won't "cut" as well as the Cheness Oniyuri I ordered, but for $60.00, I'll try it. The review at Sword Buyers Guide gave it a rather nice overall rating.
 
Cheness probably makes the best functional production swords. Anything else is going to be cheap no matter what the manufacturer says. Remember also that a katana can never be sharpened, so don't use it for cutting if your not ready to buy a new one.
 
ilbruche said:
Cheness probably makes the best functional production swords. Anything else is going to be cheap no matter what the manufacturer says. Remember also that a katana can never be sharpened, so don't use it for cutting if your not ready to buy a new one.
Click to expand...

There are quite a few folks that would take issue with the statement that Cheness makes the finest production sword or even the finest production katana, but I'm not going to argue the merits of one brand vs another especially since you did not state your criteria for what makes it the finest production sword to you. Who makes the "best" sword is largely subjective so we will let that lie.

However, I will take exception with the idea that a katana can "never" be sharpened however. They can, and are. Sharpening (or polishing) a katana is however a far more demanding task then sharpening many other types of swords due to the complex katana edge geometry.and is therefore a task best left to a professional polisher or togi. These gentlemen are few and far between and charge by the inch and their prices are not cheap. Most modern production katana are not worth the effort nor expense of having them professionally polished so while they can be sharpened they often are not... at least not by a good togi. Perhaps that is what you meant I am unclear.

However, since most modern production katana are inexpensive if someone wishes to try their hand at sharpening them up themselves they aren't really going to be out much if they mess up their sword, and if they are successful then they have saved a lot of money.
 
Based on the quality of swords being discussed here Cheness makes a great useable katana for the price. And if your only spending $100 to $300 on a sword buying a new one is going to be cheaper than a pro polish/sharpening. If your going to pay $10,000 to $30,000 for a "real" katana and actually use it you can afford to have it sharpened. I think most of what is discussed in this thread are wallhangers or cheaper production katana for tatami cutting. My mistake to say that Cheness makes the "best" functional production swords. It should have been "great low price production swords". My fault for using superlatives.
 
Just for perspective I'd like to ask a question...it's a loaded question, of course, 'cause I'm kinda known for that. Also, I apologize if this seems as if I'm redirecting this thread as that is not my intent.

How do we think guys who train Japanese Sword arts like Kenjutsu and Iaito, Battojutsu and such who cut sometimes 2 or more times a week keep their swords sharp if they can't be sharpened? I cut every week and use my sword as a training tool...it comes in and out of the saya and swung over (way over) 1000 times a week and cuts a requisite number of targets.

It doesn't matter how good or expensive a sword is or who made it. I train with a Howard Clark L6 but have trained in the past with Gunto, antiques, and Western made blades of my own creation as well as those made by some of the best smiths in the world. None of them stay sharp enough to be a quality training tool any longer than the best kitchen knife stays sharp for a chef that uses it daily.

Given that all of the qualified polishers are getting between $60 and $150 an inch to polish that means everytime a Kenjutsu practitioner wants his edge touched up for competition he's gonna spend between $1800 and $4000 to have his sword repolished? Or do they cut with dull swords?

I'm curious about how folks think real swords stay sharp for months/years at a time in the hands of guys who are serious about how they use them and use them hard and often.

Again, I add this as an educational opportunity and not to belittle or ridicule anyone or insinuate ignorance.

Brian
 
A lot of companies will make a large run of swords specifically for dojo cutting. I know Cheness does this. They might make 100-200 swords and they probably sell for under $100 each. I actually have a Cheness blade that was overstock from a run they did for a dojo.

I by no means have a wealth of knowledge on the subject. It seems to me that a practitioner would have some "throw away" live blades for practice and perhaps a nicer blade for competition.

Again I'd like to reiterate that my comment that "a katana can never be sharpened" was aimed at those buying wallhangers iaito and blades not meant for cutting. And also not worth sharpening. The basic "appleseed" shape of the blade is just a wedge and nothing like a typical knife.

Someone who wants a blade to play with should get something like this Ontario.
onbws1.jpg

Or get a bare blade and put some slabs on it like senoBDEC suggests.

For some funny reading check out these threads. These people really have no clue.
http://www.shadowofleaves.com/sword_sharpening.htm
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/15838258/an/0/page/0
http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4049
 
ilbruche said:
Based on the quality of swords being discussed here Cheness makes a great useable katana for the price. And if your only spending $100 to $300 on a sword buying a new one is going to be cheaper than a pro polish/sharpening. If your going to pay $10,000 to $30,000 for a "real" katana and actually use it you can afford to have it sharpened. I think most of what is discussed in this thread are wallhangers or cheaper production katana for tatami cutting. My mistake to say that Cheness makes the "best" functional production swords. It should have been "great low price production swords". My fault for using superlatives.
Click to expand...

No worries, I've been known to use surperlatives a time of six myself... it almost invariably comes back to get me in trouble. :) Just wanted to try to add some clarification so that whoever wanders through here doesn't get the wrong ideas about various things. Thanks for helping with that. :thumbup:
 
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