check my phase conversion requirements

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Nov 7, 2012
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so I just moved, previously had 3 phase power
now I have standard home power

I have three 3-phase machines
2 HP Bridgeport mill
2 HP 2x72
? HP Boyar Schulz Surface grinder

I can only run machine at a time.

options

1) hire an electrician and run me a 220 line, est cost ?
but a 2-3 HP rotary phase converter to power any of these set cost $300-$400

2) buy a KBAC style VFD which is 110 input and wire that up with a 3 phase female plug
no electrician required

thoughts/comments/suggestion?
Harbeer

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I'd get an estimate.

I don't know if you can run a 2 hp motor off of a 110v input... the amp draw might be too much.
unless you had a dedicated circuit, with big enough wires to handle the amps.
 
With thoes tiny motors I would not do a rotary phase converter. I would buy a vfd and moveit around. You can run 2hp off 120v with a KBAC-27D. It’s what I use on my grinder and it’s a fantastic drive for the money.
 
120 volts will work, But two horsepower is getting real close to the limits of 120V 15A circuit. Its better if you have a 20A circuit.
Best is install a 240V circuit, Depending on your existing wiring scheme, it may be possible to not need new wiring if you are willing to live with 15A or 20A at 240V.
Given the way the question is asked,,, Thats something best done by electrician.
 
RPCs need to be sized larger than the largest motor you expect to start with it typically. In your case, I'd recommend a 5hp rotary minimum. I will also give the advice I give everyone asking about this, buy something twice as big as you think you'll need, it's a one-time cost, and it'll save you a lot of heartache when you find something larger you want to power later.

I use a 10hp CNC ready RPC from American Rotary, and can't recommend them enough, however I wish I had gotten a 20 or 30. The idle power consumption is minimally higher, but I've turned down machines that would have been incredibly useful and insane bargains because I couldn't power them, and didn't have the time or money to replace my RPC.


On the other hand, if you think you're never gonna use anything else, I'd recommend getting cheap VFDs for each machine. I wouldn't personally ever put a non-NEMA 4x rated vfd on a grinder, but I also wouldn't ever recommend paying for a KB Electronics vfd for machine tools like you're looking to power. It's just not worth the added cost IMO. However, you may have to have 220 input for them, you're going to need that for some things eventually anyway, and using the cheaper VFDs can help mitigate the cost of putting in a couple of 220 circuits for your welder and HT oven as example, if you go ahead and do it all at once.

You definitely dont need a sealed vfd for a mill or even the SG as long as you keep it away from the path of grinding dust, but you should get a sealed vfd for your 2x72.

FWIW, the KBAC 27D will *run* a 2hp motor, but for the record, it will not give it full power with 110V input, derating it to basically 1.5hp. The difference between a 2hp motor powered by 110v vs 220v is obvious if you've ever tried them side-by-side. It's also somewhat contentious whether it affects the longevity of the motors.

I'm also not a big fan of switching a VFD to run multiple things, that's fine for frugality, and assuming everything is within arms reach, but it's tedious and time consuming if not. Walk over the to SG try to turn it on, realize the VFD is switched to another tool, walk back, switch it. Yeah, it may seem marginal, and if you're the super patient type, cool, but for me, time is money, and those sort of aggravations keep me from wanting to use a machine. You also add a lot of infrastructure if anything is separated. Either conduit to run all the stuff and wire, or SO cable to be reasonably safe having cords laying all over the place, and expensive turn lock plugs if you want things dis-connectable.


Personally, everything I have that runs off a VFD, has it's own. (The ebay VFDs, which work absolutely fine, are like $100, you can buy 3 for the price of one KB, and still have money left over), and I still have and highly recommend a rotary phase converter, for anything bigger than 2-3hp.




Another question is; if you go with a single VFD, are you gonna have to pay an electrician to do all that wiring also? If you're not comfortable running your own 220v circuit, you're probably not comfortable doing all that in such a way that's actually safe, and I can almost guarantee, it won't be "legal" in the eyes of a fire marshall. Most electricians don't have a clue when it comes to wiring up things like VFDs and RPCs correctly. I've fixed no less than 5 grinders that were "wired by a professional electrician" that could be stalled with 1 hand and casual pressure, because they wired the motors based on 440V input, assuming that the "high voltage" diagram was what it needed.


On the other hand, almost any of them could run you a couple of 220V circuits to each side of your shop, drop 2-3 receptacles of your choice, and it really shouldn't be expensive, if you find someone who's not looking to rip you off, or your infrastructure (breaker box) isn't massively far away. I'd run a larger circuit for a welder in the future. I've got a single 20 amp 220v circuit for my grinders, (4), which'll power any two of them at the same time no problemo.



3 KBAC VFDs will run you what? Almost $1200 after they're shipped?
 
How old are the machines?

VFDs have a horrible spiky waveform that can kill old motors very quickly. As I understand things, it’s mainly down to the resin used to impregnate the windings. I don’t know of anyone having problems with motors from the 1980s, but I do know of problems with motors from the 1960s.

If the motor has been rewound at any point in its life, it will have been done with the resin that was in use at the time.

It may or may not be a problem, just seemed worth mentioning.

A sine-wave filter will clean up the output from a VFD so that it is safe for use with old motors, but the filters cost nearly as much as a good VFD, at least they do over here in the UK.
 
One thing that folks can do who don't live in the big city is get a 3 phase 240 VAC generator. I have seen some really great ones sold as surplus with almost no hours on them. The smaller ones in the 10K range are semi-portable and cold be put in a vented garden shed.

A few years back one rural maker in had power problems with frequent power outages that stopped his production. 100 miles from him I found a backup power generator from a medical clinic. It put out something like 45,000 watts, single phase 120/240 and 3 phase 220/440. It was mounted on a steel skid with all the controls, transfer switch, and remotes .... and had its own diesel tank. It could run several days before needing fuel. They had it in a 12X10 portable garden shed ( not included). They were moving the clinic and selling the 4 year old $50,000 generator for $5,000. It had never been run byond testing monthly for one hour each month. All you needed was a reasonable size flat bed trailer and they would load it on with a forklift. He could run his whole shop and house from that thing ... and already had a large fuel oil storage tank at his place.

The knifemaker didn't get it, but I believe another person did who had a good size home machine shop.

You can often pick up trailer mounted surplus generators that have much more power than a shop needs. Many of these have three phase generators.
 
You know I have heard of people saying vfds kill old motors but I have never seen it. I know if you mess with the carrier frequency to make the motor quieter you can shorten the life span. I know Salem runs the same surface grinder as I do and he runs his off a vfd. I think our grinders where made in the early 50s
 
The extra heat created from VFD squarewave is so freaking insignifigant. Its one of those things some webtwat nitpicked to extremes to become an urban legend. Unless severely beating on a motor or it was already just about done for, In real day to day life adding VFD is no problem.
At any rate, all used motors should be checked out on a ’Megger before putting back into service.
 
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It's not the additional heat generated by a VFD, expect for running at very low speeds where the motor fan doesn't provide sufficient cooling. As Timgunn said, a VFD has some issues with voltage spikes appearing on the carrier wave, something to do with standing waves when used over large distances, more than are normally used in the shop. These voltage spikes can "punch thru" the insulation of older motors. For short distances like we're using in the shop, it's MUCH less of an issue, just something to be aware of. I'd never think of not using a VFD because of that worry, just if it happens, then have the motor rewound, or purchase new motor.
 
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