chef & kitchen knives revisited

M

matthew rapaport

Joined
Jun 23, 1999
Messages
1,209
Hi... Hope some of you remember be. Haven't been around here in nearly 2 years... Lots of changes. Got divorced, don't live in rural environment, no more throwing knives, no more wearing fixed blades around town.. Sigh... But I have made some positive changes...

Got an early retirement from the last company I worked for and used my buyout to take myself to a chef-school (Professional Culinary Institute, Campbell CA). I'll graduate soon and will end up working somewhere as a cook, at least until (and if) I find I can't cut it and I return to my usual day job... Be that as it may, now to the thread...

The school gave us a knife kit. All Whustoffs from what look like 3 different series of theirs. A lot of knives and I'm sure the kit would be worth a lot if I had to buy all of those knives retail... But most of them are just too heavy for me. Someone got me into "Mac Knives" which I love, and find it strange that I can't find a discussion of them anywhere here on BF??? But even the Macs have their problems. Very lite, 15deg secondary grind, razor sharp, but still that squared off spine that really hurts that spot at the base of the index finger until you develop a really thick callus...

I've checked out a few other sites I find listed here like Japan Wood worker and Japanese Knives Direct (that's a really good site with lots of mfgs represented and some fantastic looking kitchen knives at both really low and middle-end prices, amazing.

So I'd like to talk about all of this if anyone is interested and I wonder why there isn't a lot more discussion about kitchen knives on BF... After all, where else outside the woods do you get to use a 10" knife all day long :)
 
Bark River is coming out with a series of chef's knives. You may want to hold off on any purchases until they are released. I have been itching to get some new kitchen knives but am holding on to check out the barkies.
 
I don't cook a lot so I don't have much experience as far as extended use goes, but I enjoy using my Tojiro DP 180mm gyuto (think it was recommended by the guys over at KF). The price was remarkably low ($45 from japanesechefsknife), and the edge holding is great.
 
I am not a professional food worker but I use Japanese knives and Chinese cleavers for all my food prep at home. I find them to take a better edge, easier to maintain and lighter than most knives like the Whustoffs or Henkels. Even the cheap $20-30 dollar Japanese knives that I find in an asian supermarkets are great. There should be a whole bunch of Japanese supermarkets in San Jose, visit them and see what you can get for very little money.
 
When I was looking into kitchen knives, I also found a lack of information on BF. I went to KF for research as there's a dedicated forum there. I haven't gone to foodie yet (briefly browsed there a couple of times), but there might be good info there also. I personally try to stick to a single forum for any topic...too many forums gets too difficult to check with the time I have. Good luck in your search. I've been trying to decide on a new Santoku for half a year now...part laziness, part wanting more info to make the best choice I can.
 
Look into the Shun knives sold under various names . As for the spine -- I find new knives have two problems , first I put a small chamfer on the spine getting rid of the sharp edge. Second real hazard is the heel ,that needs a good sized chamfer.
 
mete said:
Look into the Shun knives sold under various names .
Click to expand...
Just a little correction mete, our Shun knives are not sold under various names. Our brand is simply just Shun. If it doesn't say Shun, it is not ours.
 
Foodie Forums is the place to go for ruining your finances with must-have knife purchases and sharpening gear.

I've got an appointment with some steak and a Shun Elite 8" Chef's Knife this week. Thursday night, I think.

You might not find too much talk about kitchen knives because they lay many of our myths and misconceptions to rest and because skill at cooking and at cutting are both required. Plus, if folks get used to the stock edge on a Shun kitchen knife (or a Takeda or Carter or Suisin....), they might start despising their pocketknives.
 
Thomas W, there seems to be a common misunderstanding then as many like myself call them Shun. I stand corrected then .About the only difference seems to be the handle .Mine are the agrussell with corian handles . In any case they're all great !!
 
I am not a chef but I always wanted to play one on tv :)

I am the primary cook in my family of four and do like go all out on dinner parties. Personally I really like my Henckels professional grade but I am also interested in the Shun's (Really enjoy Thom's reviews). My wife received two Wusthof's from cooking classes. Contrary to the author of this thread, I find the Wusthofs too light for my liking and I can't keep them sharp. I get them sharp, just can't keep them that way. Henckel's - no problem much better steel (what ever it is) in my opinion. I do like the Wusthof fillet knife though!

The Henckels have a good heft to them and they cut well once you reprofile the bevel. The 8" chef and the paring knife are my goto knives for most chores. I keep my crock sticks in their wooden box right on the knife block and lightly re-establish a micro-bevel about once a week or when needed. The back of my leather belt is used about once every two days to keep things nice and polished.

The only problem I have is when my sixteen year old cuts his peanut butter sandwhich and doesn't wipe the blade off and sticks the knife back in the block :( It is very difficult to pull out peanut butter from the block. Of course he denies everything - including the little bit of peanut butter that finds itself around the top of the milk jug...

I just sanded down the edge of the spine with the course stone of my lansky set. I haven't seen anyone review the Fallkniven whale series or the spyderco knives yet. I would be interested in hearing how these perform!
 
I have full block sets of Cutco and Victorinox. I like them
very much. I use the 8 and 10" chef knives all the time.
I just use a steel to clean them up after a few uses.
I also have a few Boker Ceramics too. But if you work
on a line or have other people handling your knives you
probably wouldn't want to bring ceramics out. :)

I've given my mom some decent knives to use but she
always brings out this damn 30yr old Old Hickory paring
knife to cut up everything. The damn thing is so thin
from me steeling/sharpening it you could read the
paper through it. haha

mike
 
Wow... Hi everyone! Bobby thanks for the welcome back!

Thanks for the foodies reference, I'll check them out. Interesting that out of all the above replies, still no one has mentioned Mac Knives by name. Mind you it isn't a big deal, just makes me smile cause from what I hear in the kitchens, these are the beginning of the real "high end" (as far as performance goes). I have looked a Shun, thank you. They look beautiful, but they are about 2x the price of the Macs, and so far I am not even worthy of the fabulous workmanship and engineering of the Macs, let alone a Shun!

Someone said something about how those of us who know and use good (even moderately good) chef knives will start to look down on our pocket knife (I have lots of those ranging from $50 to $350) edges and that made me laugh cause I have had exactly that experience over the last few months that I've been using decent chef knives every day!

That Wusthoff "fillet knife", if I know the one you mean... Mine has a fibrox handle and a narrow upswept blade ending in a very narrow and severe point. It is what I would call "semi-flexible", it seems better for round and tougher fish as compared to more delicate flat fish. It happens to make a very good boning knife though, especially for chicken and other animals like rabbit and lamb.

I'll look at Bark River (thanks) and I had stumbled onto japaneseknives.com and also japanwoodworker.com. But the first of those is truely awsome. There are a lot of knife makers represented there from the inexpensive (but from the look a very high quality for the money) to the higher-end, really nice. I have discovered that you want to be really careful here about buying for collection purposes (with use at home perhaps in a home where they can be cared for) vs real work. A commercial kitchen is no place for expensive knives. Again I see Mac coming in at about the highest end that the median type chef or cook will actually use in a production kitchen. Even a $90 chef knife is a lot to loose when you're only making $12 - $20 an hour!

From what I have actually used, you have Forschner as your basic, competent, working knife. At $35 you're not going to worry about loosing it or having it stolen, or dropped on the floor in a busy fast paced professional kitchen environment. Between forschner and Mac (at 3x the Forschner price) there are many (including Wusthoff and Henkle and more), but those Macs really are beautiful knives. Then come Shuns at about 1.5 to 2x the price of the Macs. I think also that Shun spines are actually rounded. That alone would be a strong recommendation for a production knife! I haven't seen that anywhere else.

Thanks for all the replies everyone. I hope we can talk about some of what is available and the various pros and cons, perhaps a couple of other threads here in the general forum. I'm interested in both the general purpose vegetable and prep knives and also more specialized items like slicers, and at the moment particularly trying to understand the difference and relationship between fillet and boning knives... The categories seem to overlap quite a bit.

More later, and thanks again.
 
matthew rapaport said:
I think also that Shun spines are actually rounded.
Click to expand...

Michael,

The spines on the Shuns, at least the elite series, aren't rounded. They, do, however, have a barely visible chamfer which keeps the sides of the spine from digging into thumbs and index fingers. My KX06SE Spyderco and Forschner Fibrox Chefs Knife have that same, slight chamfer, but my production Spyderco kitchen knives and Tojiro kitchen knives don't.
 
Before I really got into cooking as a hobby, I used to watch Martin Yan in Yan Can Cook.

I always got a kick out of his knife skill with his Chinese cleaver. He did practically everything with that knife! Only on occasion did he reach for a paring knife to create some sort of artistic garnish to go with whatever dish he was preparing for the show.

Since then, I've ended up using a Chinese cleaver just like Martin Yan. It's not too long, and that wide surface is perfect for use as a spatula.
 
Hi Matthew,

Welcome to the profession!

First, I am constantly amazed at how even the best knives have a square edge on top...I've dremeled a radius on many a chef knife... :D

Second, in our kitchen everyone keeps their knives to themselves...if you use a knife that's not yours you ask, at the end of the shift everyone cleans there knives, packs them up and takes em home (mine go to my office). More than one person has an expensive knife!

You can find a great custom for 150 to 400 bucks...I'm currently using a 10 inch chef knife from Butch Harner from here on BF, great knife!

Not keen on the German knives myself (though they've made sweetheart deals with many of the culinary schools in the US), you did good with the MAC though; nice and thin, well balanced and holds a good edge, all in the Japanese knife tradition. Take a dremel and gently radius the top edge.

I personally don't mind spending the buck for a great knife (such as my much used Draper damascus slicer)...after all it is a knife purchase that is used 6-8 hours a day! Betcha don't use a Sebbie that much! :)

There's a couple of kitchen knives on my site if you're curious.

-Michael
 
My cooking knives don't get much of a workout these days--I only cook for myself and my girlfriend and the occasional dinner party.
The arthritis in my hands and shoulders dictates that handle ergonomics are more important than ultimate edges. I am very happy with my Furi classic series, and they are relatively cheap here in Australia.
Greg
 
Wow Michael! What a nice collection! I can't decide what I liked best, but I think that Wantanabe calls to me loudest!

You use a dremel on hardened steel spines? Can you tell me which grinding wheel you've chosen for that task? I might give it a try with some of my less expensive knives first, but if it can be done smoothly I might try it. I don't wonder that the lower to middle end kitchen knives don't have rounded, spines, but camfering ought to come in at the middle range, and the rounding in anything much above $100. Makes such a difference and yes it's an extra production step, but that's why you're paying $100+ for a single knife anyway!

As for Chinese style cleavers, I think they are really cool but so far I've not gotten used to them enough to be competent with them...

Thanks everyone. Yes, Macs are good and they have a lot of different series ranging from relatively low priced to middle-high. I have a few forschners, henckels, wusthoff's, macs and I find them all very workable. I've ordered my first Shun (cause I had to try them), and I'll no doubt develop more specific likes and dislikes as my volume goes up... Having a knife in my hand was, after all, one of the many reasons I decided to try professional cooking. I know I'm going to be very opinionated :-)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top