Chemical fire starting--> first failure

Bagheera

Bagheera

Joined
Oct 6, 1998
Messages
957
Hi everyone,

It looks like I'm addicted to starting (controlled
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) fires with the help of sparking equipement in diverse forms.
Lately I saw one of Ray Mears "Survival Stories" 30 minute programs and I like his down to earth way of dealing with survival situations.
Your brain is still the most important tool, gadget or piece of equipement you need, without it and the knowhow to deal with a Survival situation you'd better hope that your extremely lucky that someone saves you in time.

Back to my "problem", I saw Ray start a fire by using KMnO4 crystals (the purple multi-use stuff) that I always have with me in my PCASK (Personal Carry Always Survival Kit
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) a good teaspoon of them put on tinder and pouring some Glycerin on it.

I expect that the O4 from the KMN04 get's used for starting some heavy oxidising process with the Glycerin and that should produce a lot of heat setting the tinder on fire.

I bought a small bottle of Glycerin at the drug store but whatever I tried no heat and fire.

Any one has an idea why it doesn't succeed I thought I bought the wrong stuff but on the videotape I froze the picture and it clearly read Glycerin, perhaps the English word Glycerin means something else then the Dutch Glycerin?

Anybody tried the above and has some tips including the chemical formula of Glycerin so that I can check it at the drugs-store?

Cheers from Holland,

Bagheera

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IIRC, both glycerol (glycerin) AND potassium permanganate are hygroscopic. This could be your problem.

Personally, KMnO4 would be WAY down on my list of stuff to start fires with. It is a very potent oxidizer, and could easily create more fire than you wanted. For example, we mixed some (deleted) with KMn04, because the (deleted) label said to avoid contact with any oxidizers. The mixture exploded.
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Why don't you stick with the vaseline and cotton balls?? You crazy Dutchman!
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Walt
 
Hi Walt,

Talk about "crazy Dutchman" you are the one mixing (deleted) with KMnO4 not me
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Ever tried KMnO4 with Vaseline in a (deleted) mixture? makes for some decent "plastic" explosive only need a good detonator.

My advice don't try it I already have only one good ear left the other is the 3 miljon Lire ear
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.

Walt if somebody like Ray Mears shows this on BBC 2 at 21:00 h I suppose it should be safe to use.

By the way when are you comming to Europe and especially Holland?

Cheers,

Bagheera

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There is a product marketed in America called "FLAME 'MATCHLESS FIRE STARTER"

One bottle contains Potassium Permanganate the other a mixture of ALcohol, Methanol, and Glycerin.

You put one cap on PP on tinder, drip 20-30 drops of the liquid on it. Wait a bit and the pile shoots small flames that are described as the 'energy of 100 matches'.

Piet, ever play with Calcium Carbide?

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Thank you,
Marion David Poff aka Eye, Cd'A ID, USA mdpoff@hotmail.com

My Talonite Resource Page, nearly exhaustive!!
My Fire Page, artificial flint and index of information.

"Many are blinded by name and reputation, few see the truth" Lao Tzu
 
Hi Marion,

Calcium Carbide is probably called only carbide in Holland and was used in miners lamps and a long time ago for car lamps.
One drips water on it and it produces a very flamable even explodable gas (acetyleen in Dutch) when mixed with air.

We used it in old fashioned milk containers made of copper and later zinkplated metal were the farmer put the cows milk in.

dril a small hole in the side near the bottom of an old can put some carbide in it and some water close it with the heavy metal cap, wait and then when the gas mixed itself with the air inside top form an explodable mixture hold a fire at the hole and hear the bang and see the metal cap go to the moon.

Do you mean that stuff Marion.... YEP I've done that
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Cheers from Holland,

Bagheera

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[This message has been edited by Bagheera (edited 05-25-2000).]
 
Potassium permanganate and glycerin forms a puprple volcano with lots of purple smoke and sputtering. The process is quite exothermic and it gets hot but does not burst directly into flames although if it was combined withsome tinder it should work.

KMnO4 will stain your skin purple until the skin cells replace themselves. The smoke is poisionous and should not be inhaled.
Generally things like this are held in containers until the pressure can build and then they will violently explode.
Both KMnO4 and glycerin are hydroscopic (take on water) which will spoil the reaction.

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Hi Doug,

Thanks for the explination, I will check to see if there's something wrong with the KMnO4.
I don't think so as the crystals are stil purple and dropping a few of them in water turns it purple and it works great on Athletes feet.
The only possibility is that the glyserin was somehow not good.

Anyhow there was no sputtering and no purple smoke and heat when I put them together.

Cheers,

Bagheera

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[This message has been edited by Bagheera (edited 05-26-2000).]
 
Hi folks,

The redox rxn is very hot and can be used to set off all sorts of things.

Try two things. One is to be sure that the KMnO4 crystals are small. More surface area to react the better. If they are big you take a few sheets of newspaper and put some of the crystals in the crease, fold it over and very gently crush them with a rolling pin. Roll them don't pound them. No, it will not detonate or anything. But the rolling can be controlled eaiser.

You can also try diluting the glycerin with just a small bit of alcohol so it will spread over the crystals easier.

When you ad it it can take up to 30 seconds to start. So be cautious!

Vince
 
Thermite is easy to improvise, but real hard to light. Generally you light it with burning magnesium.

I keep a lot of cigarette lighters around and hardly any permangenate.


 
Hi Walt,

I won't be getting that termite to dangerous stuff.
This was just an experiment to see if what they show you on TV is working in the real World.

Yesterday I "grounded" some KMnO4 crystals into powder and mixed the glycerin with a little 90% alcohol and yes after about 30-45 seconds it produced heat but not sufficient to start some fine tinder that I had on hand.

I will keep on experimenting, Scouts allways do that even the old one
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, but for now I'm happy that I carry my Spark-Lite and for Firework shows my Big Swedisch Army Firesteel.
Well you all now the storry behind that man crying an SLR with the big 70-280mm photolens
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.... perhaps BIG firesteels have the same meaning as that photolens but then for us outdoor people
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.. don't look at me I don't carry it for that reason.

Walt, we will be around San Fransico the end of July are You home???

Cheers,

Bagheera


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Hi Piet:

The trouble with chemical reactions is that they are sometimes unpredictable if the chemicals are contaminated - I think that you've seen that with the hygroscopic nature of glycerin and potassium permanganate.

I have a concern here but not a criticism. I am worried about kids seeing information here which might lead them on to more adventurous chemical experiments.
Let's be sure - no criticism is intended! If you are old(er) like me then some of the classic books you read in school contained all kinds of recipies.
Times have changed though.

Jimbo
 
Hi Jimbo,

I'm in my forties and you're correct during my Biology study at the University we had access to formulas books and chemicals you wouldn't believe.

It's crazy how simple chemicals can when mixed together crystalizing out of a solution be so dangerous.
I once had a landing fly disintegrate himself when he set of some crystals that some of us had "cooked together".

Jimbo, as I already stated this KMnO4 and Glycerin trick was broadcasted on the BBC2 network and if you're looking for a network with stricyt moral rules and showing no dangerous stuff it's the Britisch BBC 2.

However I agree it's best not to start typing out all kinds of recipies that could lead to some stupid experiments.
In my eyes I've not crossed the dangerous border and will never ever do that. I got really angry some time ago during an open day at a highschool where my daughter will go to after the summer vacation when I saw kids looking up and finding all kinds of sites on the internet where you can get information about more nasties, chemical wise to speak than I believed possible.
They were looking for chemicals to make rocket motors for their model rockets and with the stuff that I saw flashing by you could even get scuds to fly, nasty stuff.

I will stop the KMnO4 fire thread although I must say some crystals in a bucket of water are potent stuff to kill any fungal infection, I think you call that Athletes feet.

Cheers from Holland,

Bagheera

"he who loves the Spark-Lite and Swedisch Firesteel best for starting fires
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)

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A book you might want to check out is called Chemical Magic by Leonard A. Ford. It was originally published in 1953 but still available as a Dover edition. There are almost 20 pages devoted to chemical firestarting of one type or another. The isbn is 0-486-67628-5.

The potassium permanganate and glycerine reaction is described on p. 62.

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Hoodoo

The low, hoarse purr of the whirling stone—the light-press’d blade,
Diffusing, dropping, sideways-darting, in tiny showers of gold,
Sparkles from the wheel.

Walt Whitman
 
Hi Piet:

Like I said it was just a concern. Please don't put an end to the posts on this topic! I think everyone here would agree that information is what the Internet is all about - and certainly what this forum is all about.

It is of course my fault for being in a hurry and not explaining myself. I guess that really my concern is more for posters than people trying experiments. When I grew up you were expected to look after yourself - but as I said times have changed.
I've been teaching for 25 years and for 23 of those years I would let students use my pocket knife to put a wedge end on their pencil crayons for proper coloring. Now I don't because if someone cut themselves I would expect a serious complaint that I didn't instruct them in safety properly or it couldn't have happened.. Really. The safety record of the 23 years wouldn't count for much, neither would the observation that accidents sometimes happen with sharp objects.

So all I was trying to say was that posters might want to be careful and perhaps throw in a disclaimer that such experiments as they discuss should only be attempted by people who recognize and are prepared to deal with the risks.
Other than that - information is what we're here for!

Jimbo
 
Bagheera,
I am also a big fan of Ray Mears (He is the only "survivalist" we see on TV here)

I must admit that I knew about this technique before I saw it demonstrated. I had also successfully done it. In the book that I got it from (don't remember which), it said to use pot. permanganate and a drop of antifreeze. You should use a small drop of antifreeze only. (The bigger the drop, the longer it takes) When I did it, I put less than a teaspoon of pot.permanganate in a piece of newspaper and put a drop of antifreeze on it. I then scrunched the newspaper and put it under some kindling. It took a few minutes, but soon it started to smoke and then I got flames.
It has to be the easiest way I have ever lit a fire!!

 
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