Chinese Butterfly Sword Techniques Applicable for Khuks?

Triquetra

Triquetra

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Mar 7, 2002
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The question comes up every once in a while about training or techniques for using Khuks for martial arts or if there is any formal training. I was looking at the Chinese Butterfly Swords and was just wondering out loud if the same techniques and moves would fit in with the Khukuris. It would seem that most of the techniques with those short swords would be chops and slashes with some limited thrusts much like I would invision the Khuks. Any one have any experience with these or opinions on the applicability of the techniqes for Khukuris. Books on the CBSwords are pretty easy to find.
 
I wouldn't think so. The balance and blade design are pretty different- the butterfly swords are considerably more neutral, aren't they?

John
 
Me neither. I think the butterfly knives are more for slicing than chopping anyway. The way the blade is shaped seems to make it easier to slice, and the chinese arent really as much into just hacking an opponents limbs off as say, the japanese. Im not really an expert on butterfly knives, but i do have experience with the chinese saber, and my teacher was VERY adamant about me not chopping with it, so i can only assume that its the same with the butterfly knives.
 
Spectre said:
I wouldn't think so. The balance and blade design are pretty different- the butterfly swords are considerably more neutral, aren't they?

John
Click to expand...
I know that the design and balance is different. I was just thinking that they would use more chops and hacking movements like a Khuk as opposed to straight thrusts like a Roman Gladius or some other sort of straight blade or slashing cuts like a curved blade. Could be wrong though. I've never held a Butterfly Sword or practiced that form of Kung Fu. With the blade being so wide, I wouldn't think it would be great for straight thrusts.
 

Cucharadedragon, I can see where you are coming from. Especially if you think about using Sirupati's, which can slice pretty well.

No, butterfly swords are not for hacking, but they are designed for heavy slicing, slapping, and short thrusting. I think an appropriately chosen khukuri will do the same thing.

Yes, of course they're different, but I have thought about the similarities before on quite a few occassions.

Wing Chun (the chinese style that predominantly uses butterfly swords) also has a hand technique known as chain punching. Essentially, just very fast, linear, drilling punches to your opponent. I have tried it using a pair of 15" siru's and they worked very well.

The strike becomes more of a 'tap' than a full power chop. But, the damage from several of these lighter strikes can add up. They can also open the opponent up to more powerful techniques ... which leads us to bando ... of which I know really nothing about, except that they love fighting with khuks.

Can a khuk slice? Sure it can. Was it designed to? Not really. Can a butterfly sword chop? Of course it can, just like your big bowie knives. Was it designed to? Probably not.

My feeling is that if one wanted to learn actual self defense techniques with the khukuri, the best ways would be to train in Bando; w/ the Ghurka's; Wing Chun; or any of the filipino knife systems that are out there. Then, take your learning and your khuks and meld them together until you don't have to think about them anymore.

Hope I don't sound too opinionated. I just happen to like both butterfly knives and khukuris!!


~ bamboo
 
you should be able to do any technique from any school with any weapon.
It might look a little different, but the essence will be the same.
I say go for it, go explore, try it out and see what happens...
(just be careful)
 
I'll preface this by saying I'm not a martial artist....

Most combatives style strikes and blocks designed for a stick/baton/club and knife seem to work pretty well for a khukuri. Some, if not all, standard unarmed blocks I've picked up in my limited experience adapt rather easily to integrating a khukuri. There is a difference in the strength and flexibility required in your hands and arms that takes some training to overcome. And, of course, some things are easier or harder to execute due to the size, weight and shape of a particular blade. Footwork is more important as it keeps your body in a position where you don't interfere with the progress of the blade.;)

The one thing I've been interested in is in something along the lines of this...http://ahfaa.org/ I don't know much about the organization or how complete this is, but the technique for military sabre, bowie and tomahawk would seems to be pretty similar to what works for a khukuri in varying degrees depending on the model...

Regardless, this is a nice set of drills for when you're too tired to safely train with a khukuri...http://ahfaa.org/indianclubs.htm:thumbup:

While I personally wouldn't do two trisuls, the trisul seems an intriguing secondary weapon in combination with a khukuri. There is mention of a bowie/toothpick and tomahawk/toothpick combination above... This wouldn't be much different (except for the added benefit of the aiming device when you want to throw the khukuri).:)
 
The Foxy Follies always make me think of Butterfly swords. Wide blades and light weight, like the BF swords. That might be the way to go.

Bob
 
They're not 'hawks, they're not swords...just what are they?

Fairbairn's techniques for the smatchet would probably work:
http://www.gutterfighting.org/smatchet.html

It's quite pared down, but that's for a reason. It's a place to start anyway.

Gyi has achieved a (deserved IMO) bad rep but the style is held in high regard by people I respect; if there's a Bando school near you, look there. If Bando isn't an option, a longer and more roundabout route to follow is to simply study other weapons and look for techniques which might translate. Most cultures have a tradition of edged weapons and at least some of them recorded these. The similarities occur in the oddest places sometimes.

If the weapon being studied has a guard, remember that most khukuris do not and the lack of a guard will change things in a very fundamental way. Some styles based around weapons with guards (German longsword fighting, for example) would simply not work at all without a guard, regardless of the similarities between a longsword and another weapon. In fact in this particular case, I'd say that the presence of a guard is more important than the presence of an edge for those particular techniques to work.

Remember that without a guard, if you block a blow with your blade, your hand and/or wrist will probably be injured. That's why so many swords include them.

Whatever instruction, techniques, etc. that you find, I recommend that you construct a padded trainer, find a partner, and spar them out against an unwilling adversary. You'll find out very quickly what works and what does not.

Until I work with a butterfly sword I don't have an opinion about similarities between these two weapons.
 
There's nothing wrong with training or sparring with soft weapons, but dont go fast.
Even plastic knves can cause nerve injury or blindness.
for the love of God, go slow.

If you want to learn how to use any weapon from a martial arts school that is more than a thousand years old, try the Bujinkan.
Straight, curved, sharp, dull, guard, no guard: We'll use anything and it will work.

The first lesson is always free (I think)
 
I hope that no one minds if I revive this thread. I have also thought about using Khukuri's as an alternative for the Chinese Butterfly Sword (also known as Double Southern Knives, or the Human Character Knives). Well actually, I've done more than just think. :)

I am a kung fu instructor, and I am trained in the Shaolin Human Character Knives. (The name refers to the Chinese character for "human"). There are many different styles, and I believe that the one I practice lends itself well to using the Khukuri. Perhaps there are also other styles that work well, but this is the only one that I know.

A while back, I bought a cheap Cold Steel Kukri for about $15. One day, I got the idea to use it instead of the Human Character Knives. So I bought another cheap Kukri, and I did some training.

In my opinion, they work fine. There are obvious considerations, many of which have been mentioned here. There is no guard, and that is probably the most significant point to consider. Also, the Chinese Butterfly Swords have a special L-shaped guard that can be used to lock weapons. So those techniques are not applicable.

But plenty of other techniques are still applicable. As someone mentioned, they may not be ideal for slashing, but they'll do the trick. And there are chopping techniques in my style, so those will work even better. I feel quite comfortable with double Khukri's, and that is solely due to my training with the Shaolin Human Character Knives. I feel that I could use them effectively against several weapons, especially the Chinese spear, which is the weapon that all Chinese weapons were measured against.

I plan on purchasing some HI Khukuri's. When I do I'll try to take a video of the form and share it here. I'll also try to show some of the combat applications.
 
Welcome, Siaharok:)

Reviving long dead threads is no big deal, really. However, I always get a kick out of guys that respond to a query on what to buy from 2004 or so:D

That said, any information or knowledge that you feel like sharing would be more than appreciated.

Once again, welcome to the forum:):thumbup:
 
The spear IS a difficult weapon to defend against, that is why it was the primay weapon of foot soldiers until firearms really became common. Long reach, good penetration..I'd like to see video of this human knife work with khukuris..
 
I've done some practicing using my 26" Chitlangi in my right hand and my 21.5" Chitlangi in my left hand. I got a better grip on the technique by envisioning them in my head as more like axes than swords.

It was considerably different than my usual practice with a tomahawk in my right hand and a warclub in my left hand.
 
Hahaha, me so funny huh... at 10ft you are already down, finish with Kabar, or your own blade.
 
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