Chinese-made Traditionals--Oxymoron?

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WoodenChicken

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I tried to search this topic and couldn't find anything. I hope it sparks intelligent conversation and nothing else.

For me, Traditional slipjoint knives represent a time and place in our country (I'm American) when things were made with pride by American workers. That is perhaps why I came back to these knives of my youth after a few year fling with modern, tactical knives. For the purpose of this thread, I am not referring to traditionals made in Europe, because I don't know enough about them to comment. But I do know a little bit about the American companies who are trying to keep this tradition going, and those are the ones I will gladly spend my hard-earned money on. For myself, I would never buy a Chinese-made traditional knife--same way I would never buy Chinese made snacks for my dog, for instance. I will support the USA traditional knife companies. Proudly.

No judgements if you buy and enjoy those products, but I like the USA stuff. What can I say? I belong to an organization that says the Pledge of Allegiance before each meeting, and sings "God Bless America" at the end.....:D
 
I accidentally purchased a Buck small stockman a few years ago. Didn't bother to look at the box just assumed it was a regular Buck knife, live and learn. Keep it in a tool box full of stuff, if it gets damaged I don't care. Not a Chinese knife fan, but love their tvs, radios and cell phones so what.
 
If a Chinese made traditional is a Chinese traditional, and not a Chinese version of an American traditional, then it wouldn't be an oxymoron. Semantics aside, I typically buy American because I like to buy customs and I don't know any Chinese custom knife makers. If I did, I would probably buy Chinese traditionals from them, because I can dig it.
 
I generally prefer to buy traditionals made where they originated, if that makes any sense. Meaning, my jacks or stockmans or trappers will be American or German, my Opinels from France, my SAK from Switzerland. Also, I really enjoy supporting companies like Buck* and Case and GEC and Opinel and Victorinox, who have not given in to the pressure to outsource to China in order to pay their workers as little as possible.

I'm fortunate that the price tag is not always the biggest concern when I'm purchasing a knife. If it were, I'd probably resort to buying something second-hand on that big auction site. But if I needed a cheap NEW traditional and for some reason decided to buy something made in China, it'd be a Buck 373 or 371 stockman.

-- Mark


* For the most part.
 
If it is made well, get it. I would like to see the Chinese made Buck knives use better steel, ie 420HC over 420J2. Frost has some pretty knives, but they don't cut hot butter. Never had a Rough Rider, but I have heard good things about them. I believe that Benchmade had their Lone Wolf slipjoints made in China. AGs slipjoints from China look pretty durned good. I try to support the American companies the most I can, but it all comes down to quality for me.
 
If this thread sparks anything but intelligent conversation it'll get moved offline.
If you haven't familiarized yourself with the forum guidelines regarding "China Bashing", now would be a good time to do it.
 
I have a number of wonderful custom slip joints made by a Japanese maker. It's the pattern that makes the knife traditional, not where it was made. At least that's true in this forum.
 
This is amusing. The first folding knives date back toRrome. And Slipjoints with springs arguably invented in UK/Europe 400 years ago also predates the birth of our nation.

WoodenChicken said:
I tried to search this topic and couldn't find anything. I hope it sparks intelligent conversation and nothing else.

For me, Traditional slipjoint knives represent a time and place in our country (I'm American) when things were made with pride by American workers. That is perhaps why I came back to these knives of my youth after a few year fling with modern, tactical knives. For the purpose of this thread, I am not referring to traditionals made in Europe, because I don't know enough about them to comment. But I do know a little bit about the American companies who are trying to keep this tradition going, and those are the ones I will gladly spend my hard-earned money on. For myself, I would never buy a Chinese-made traditional knife--same way I would never buy Chinese made snacks for my dog, for instance. I will support the USA traditional knife companies. Proudly.

No judgements if you buy and enjoy those products, but I like the USA stuff. What can I say? I belong to an organization that says the Pledge of Allegiance before each meeting, and sings "God Bless America" at the end.....:D
Click to expand...
 
Peregrin said:
If this thread sparks anything but intelligent conversation it'll get moved offline.
If you haven't familiarized yourself with the forum guidelines regarding "China Bashing", now would be a good time to do it.
Click to expand...

Duly noted, sir. No bashing intended on my part.
 
Lots of "traditional" knives came from overseas before the manufacturing was comon in the US.

Traditional is a style and pattern and not where it was made. I don't see why anyone can't make traditional knives.

IMO, there really isn't much else to say about the subject.
 
I have owned a few Rough Rider knives and IMHO they serve 2 purposes for me, they let me "test drive" a pattern I am unfamiliar with, and I have used them as a "gateway knife" into slip joints for friends and family. The Rough Riders have saved me some money trying patterns, this is how I discovered I don't like the Sunfish style knives and I have several friends who I have gifted Rough Riders move on to GEC and Case knives as well.
 
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cchu518 said:
This is amusing. The first folding knives date back toRrome. And Slipjoints with springs arguably invented in UK/Europe 400 years ago also predates the birth of our nation.
Click to expand...

An excellent observation, one I remember every time I read that some folks think we in the USA have a lock on the traditional patterns or manufacture. It's just silliness to think that one country makes a "more traditional" knife than another.

I grew up on "Military City USA", and there were many here when I was a kid that used this litmus test when buying: "I won't own a knife or gun from a country that made war on ours". It was that way when I was a kid in most places around here, and when I entered the trades in the early 70s, all knives were Case, Buck, or Schrade. NOTHING else.

Back in my blue collar beginnings, the hard old men that actually went to war for our country and physically fought in battle would never think of carrying a German knife, a Japanese knife, anything from Italy, Switzerland (they didn't understand neutral and had bad opinions of it), etc. To them it was disrespectful of fallen comrades.

Thankfully, my Dad had spent time in Germany when staging out for Korea back around '51. He loved Germany, the Germans, their food and culture, and thought that buying German goods was OK. Going against the grain, he actually bought me a Boker stockman back in the mid 60s. It was a beauty that I used the dickens out of until I lost it. I have had a couple more Bokers since then, purchased by me.

Like Dan (silenthunterstudios) I learned to appreciate the value of a knife and its construction first. I was the first one I know to own a Japanese made knife. In the 80s I bought a Gerber Silver Knight and a Kershaw Whiskey Gap. I was really impressed then and still have those knives today. They both lock up very tight and even now with their smooth jigging and worn parts have no wobble or play from all the use they have seen. No question of quality there...

Seems like a lot has changed in attitudes over the last 50 years, and a lot hasn't. Folks define things these days by the way they want to see them. I don't know what they use for a measuring stick (knives or other things as well) when judging products, but some are quite militant about their views. A luxury no doubt, of living here in the USA.

But I think the actual ownership of traditional patterns by ANY country is absurd.
No one could ever convince me that any knife made wasn't an evolution of patterns based on need. After all, knives weren't made for the masses of collectors that we have today. Knives were tools they evolved as needs changed and as a result, new patterns emerged from those first pieces of flint. Certainly one pattern or another might be dominant in one region or country than another, but who knows who borrowed what pattern or mechanical construct to get the ball rolling?

Robert
 
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As usual, Robert makes very clear-headed and even-handed assessments.

Nearly everything is a re-interpretation of previous things, knives are no exception. English and German patterns were taken up, re-drawn and invigourated by the vast American cutlery industry and became their 'own' . The Chinese doubtless have 'traditional' knives that pre-date Sheffield and Solingen but now they also make affordable 'Old School 'pocket-knives, that is no oxymoron or accident.

Regards, Will
 
midnight flyer said:
An excellent observation, one I remember every time I read that some folks think we in the USA have a lock on the traditional patterns or manufacture. It's just silliness to think that one country makes a "more traditional" knife than another.

I grew up on "Military City USA", and there were many here when I was a kid that used this litmus test when buying: "I won't own a knife or gun from a country that made war on ours". It was that way when I was a kid in most places around here, and when I entered the trades in the early 70s, all knives were Case, Buck, or Schrade. NOTHING else.

Back in my blue collar beginnings, the hard old men that actually went to war for our country and physically fought in battle would never think of carrying a German knife, a Japanese knife, anything from Italy, Switzerland (they didn't understand neutral and had bad opinions of it), etc. To them it was disrespectful of fallen comrades.

Thankfully, my Dad had spent time in Germany when staging out for Korea back around '51. He loved Germany, the Germans, their food and culture, and thought that buying German goods was OK. Going against the grain, he actually bought me a Boker stockman back in the mid 60s. It was a beauty that I used the dickens out of until I lost it. I have had a couple more Bokers since then, purchased by me.

Like Dan (silenthunterstudios) I learned to appreciate the value of a knife and its construction first. I was the first one I know to own a Japanese made knife. In the 80s I bought a Gerber Silver Knight and a Kershaw Whiskey Gap. I was really impressed then and still have those knives today. They both lock up very tight and even now with their smooth jigging and worn parts have no wobble or play from all the use they have seen. No question of quality there...

Seems like a lot has changed in attitudes over the last 50 years, and a lot hasn't. Folks define things these days by the way they want to see them. I don't know what they use for a measuring stick (knives or other things as well) when judging products, but some are quite militant about their views. A luxury no doubt, of living here in the USA.

But I think the actual ownership of traditional patterns by ANY country is absurd.
No one could ever convince me that any knife made wasn't an evolution of patterns based on need. After all, knives weren't made for the masses of collectors that we have today. Knives were tools they evolved as needs changed and as a result, new patterns emerged from those first pieces of flint. Certainly one pattern or another might be dominant in one region or country than another, but who knows who borrowed what pattern or mechanical construct to get the ball rolling?

Robert
Click to expand...

Well said Robert.:thumbup:

Best regards

Robin
 
Yes, a good post that Robert. When I was a boy, folk in Sheffield would rail against cheap 'Hong Kong' imports, but despite two terrible world wars, I never heard anything but respect for Solingen cutlers from the Sheffield cutlers themselves.
 
One could argue though, that cheap, mass produced pocket knives aren't traditional, because back then a knife was much more expensive than now, relative to income.
 
Yeah I never said that folding knives were invented in USA, or that other countries had no right to make them. I'll buy from USA companies because these knives are a piece of old Americana to me. A $6 mass produced knife will definitely be made with the cheapest materials available, so, where's the quality in that? I am referring to Chinese "traditional" knives, as stated in the subject of the post.
 
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I have many makes of traditional knives, American,German,Sheffield.Italian, French and some Chinese Rough Riders. I can tell you from Much experience that Rough Riders are good knives. The Rough Rider name is owned by the biggest knife dealer in the USA (the world?) who sells ALL the American brands as well as his Rough Rider line. I'm quite sure the RRs employ a number of American workers as well as a number of Chinese workers. Check out the Rough Rider threads here in traditional.

Regards

Robin
 
When given an option, I only purchase products designed and manufactured by the same company. In the case of my knife collecting hobby, that has resulted in USA and Swiss made only.

Glad everybody can enjoy making that decision for himself :)
 
WoodenChicken said:
Yeah I never said that folding knives were invented in USA, or that other countries had no right to make them. I'll buy from USA companies because these knives are a piece of old Americana to me. A $6 mass produced knife will definitely be made with the cheapest materials available, so, where's the quality in that? I am referring to Chinese "traditional" knives, as stated in the subject of the post.
Click to expand...
Camillus knives were, by and large, cheap (inexpensive) mass produced knives. "A lot of knife for a little money." --- that's value. I really like them. Just because something is inexpensively massed produced and sold cheaply doesn't mean it holds no value.
 
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