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Chinese steel availability by manufacturer

crom

crom

Joined
Mar 29, 2007
Messages
3,219
Recently heard a podcast by KAI's Thomas in which he alludes that any steel in knives out of China are of the "CR" series; 8CRMOV and so on. Did something change regarding imports to China? How is Boker making their plus line with 440C and VG10? AG Russell has a Chinese frame lock with VG10 as well. So what gives? Is this true or is this only pertaining to the factory making Kershaws knives? Meaning, is only THAT factory only able to get the CR steels?
 
I'd guess that Thomas is referring to "aggressively priced" knives. The AG Russell Gentleman's folder is $125. At that price you can import Japanese steel into China.

Can't comment on the Bokers, as I am not familiar with them.

Sal Glesser has commented in the past that when Spyderco first looked at having the Byrd knives made in China and had prototypes made, he was told by the manufacturer that the alloy was 440C. In the course of evaluating the prototypes, Spyderco had the steel analyzed and found that it was instead 8Cr14MoV.

Some of the early Chinese Benchmades were labelled as having 440C blade alloy. Later production was labelled 9CrMoV. Rumor has it that their experience was similar to Spyderco's, but they did not catch on to the alloy difference as quickly.

As an example, I Googled up a Chinese supplier of what that company advertises as "440C" steel. Then I looked at the composition and compared it to the official SAE composition. It didn't match. Both the Carbon and Chromium contents were off. So I could buy something from a Chinese steel mill called "440C". And based on the fact that I bought something called "440C" I would be able to truthfully say the knife blade I made from it was made of 440C. But it wouldn't actually be the same alloy I would have if I made the knife in the US from AISI 440C.
http://yagangsteel.en.alibaba.com/product/616476005-214043116/SAE_440C_bearing_steel.html

http://www.efunda.com/materials/all..._Type_440C&prop=all&Page_Title=AISI Type 440C

At the end of the day, if the knife is made in China and is reasonably inexpensive, the blade steel will be a Chinese alloy. Chinese Steel mills don't work to AISI specs. Some of those alloys perform so similarly to actual AISI alloys that the difference is more in the paperwork than in the actual performance.
 
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If AG Russell says something is VG10 then that's just what it is.

But that doesn't mean the steel itself came out of China.
 
The original post stated that 3CR/420J2 and 8CR14MOV were the only options available as well, which was why KAI was using 3CR/420J2. That's where my confusion set in as there are a wide variety of alphabet soup steels and 3CR appears to be the worst one available on a major scale. Still disappoints me that KAI is using such a steel on an aggressive looking framelock knife with a tough sounding name, but I guess that's for the other topic. Just kind of funny those people disappeared after making the claim only those two steels were available.

I have a Ganzo that's supposedly 440C, and it's definitely a bit different from any of the alphabet soup blades I own. Edge retention, sharpenability, and even the color is a bit darker. I guess it's all trivial without testing the contents, but I will say it holds it's edge better than any 8CR14MOV I have experience with.
 
Chinese don't take business ethics very heavy.

from personal and business friends experience
 
o4tg said:
I have a Ganzo that's supposedly 440C, and it's definitely a bit different from any of the alphabet soup blades I own. Edge retention, sharpenability, and even the color is a bit darker. I guess it's all trivial without testing the contents, but I will say it holds it's edge better than any 8CR14MOV I have experience with.
Click to expand...

9Cr13MoV does hold an edge noticeably better than 8Cr14MoV.
It still is not actual 440C.
 
knarfeng said:
9Cr13MoV does hold an edge noticeably better than 8Cr14MoV.
It still is not actual 440C.
Click to expand...

I didn't know it was 9CR13MOV. Everything I had read was that it was 8CR14MOV being labeled as 440C. I guess that's the problem though. I would completely believe it if two blades made on different days used different grades of steel, especially on something like my Ganzo.
 
There is both 8Cr13MoV and 9Cr13MoV.
8CrMoV is very similar to AUS8 in performance.
9CrMoV is roughly similar to 440C in performance.

When I compared them in side by side testing, I could not differentiate between the edge retention of 8CrMoV and that of AUS8. But in similar testing I was able to differentiate between the edge retention of 9CrMoV and that of 440C.

8CrMoV ~= AUS8 << 9Cr13MoV < 440C if all are at the same hardness.
 
I believe that problem with chinese steel is not exact composition, but quality and trust issues.
 
knarfeng said:
There is both 8Cr13MoV and 9Cr13MoV.
8CrMoV is very similar to AUS8 in performance.
9CrMoV is roughly similar to 440C in performance.

When I compared them in side by side testing, I could not differentiate between the edge retention of 8CrMoV and that of AUS8. But in similar testing I was able to differentiate between the edge retention of 9CrMoV and that of 440C.

8CrMoV ~= AUS8 << 9Cr13MoV < 440C if all are at the same hardness.
Click to expand...
Did you happen to document it so those interested could read the results? I have an Ontario Utilitac in AUS8 that noticably holds it's edge better than my Sanrenmu, Spyderco, and Kershaw 8CR14MOV blades. Maybe I just got bad examples of hit or miss heat treating on my 8CR blades, or it's the blade grinds?
 
o4tg said:
Did you happen to document it so those interested could read the results? I have an Ontario Utilitac in AUS8 that noticably holds it's edge better than my Sanrenmu, Spyderco, and Kershaw 8CR14MOV blades. Maybe I just got bad examples of hit or miss heat treating on my 8CR blades, or it's the blade grinds?
Click to expand...

Utilitac has a way different geometry to most the others you name there I think . It would have a fair bit to do with it .
I have shyed away from buying a utilitac even for giggles because of the steel , aus 8 has not held up for me so far .
 
Knarfeng thanks. I am even more wary of knives coming from China now. I noticed a lot of companies use 420J2 as a liner material. Guess when the blade dulls you can just use the sharp edge of the liner to finish the cut haha!
 
Myal said:
Utilitac has a way different geometry to most the others you name there I think . It would have a fair bit to do with it .
I have shyed away from buying a utilitac even for giggles because of the steel , aus 8 has not held up for me so far .
Click to expand...
In the realm of budget steels, AUS8 isn't that bad. I'm not sure what other modern knives have better steel in the sub $30 bracket, if any.
 
Hi there knarfeng, have you tested 8Cr13MoV (Enlan, etc) and 9cr18MoV (Harnds)? there is also Sandvik 12C27 being used (Real Steel), just wondering how these compare.
 
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