Chinese V Japanese V Euro historical blade culture

[Houlahound]

Every human I have ever met knows what a katana is and hold some kind of deep reverence and mystique for it.

Pretty much everyone I know could not name a single Chinese blade.

Pretty much everyone I know has a vague awareness of swords that are long that knights used and they are called long swords or something. Most people have also heard of a Bowie but argue over how to pronounce it.

This is a weird situation given European blade culture is the most developed, proven and dominant force in human history. Europeans where in a literal arms race against everyone forever and as a result crafted the most developed and successful skills and weapons.

Japan on the other hand used their blades to cut up live sea animals, had almost no wespons development and used the katana mainly to bully a few defenceless peasants and occasionally self snuff the operator.

China has possibly the longest blade history, development, mythology and not even the Chinese know about it unless it is a Kung Fu demo in the mall on Chinese New year.

Why the katana so highly entrenched in the entire psyche of the world when it is basically a crow bar with an edge that has done little more than harm defenceless people.

Everything said is totally well researched and unbiased facts.... totally.

 

[Quiet]

Oh boy.

 

[not2sharp]

Every human I have ever met knows what a katana is and hold some kind of deep reverence and mystique for it.

Pretty much everyone I know could not name a single Chinese blade.

Pretty much everyone I know has a vague awareness of swords that are long that knights used and they are called long swords or something. Most people have also heard of a Bowie but argue over how to pronounce it.

This is a weird situation given European blade culture is the most developed, proven and dominant force in human history. Europeans where in a literal arms race against everyone forever and as a result crafted the most developed and successful skills and weapons.

Japan on the other hand used their blades to cut up live sea animals, had almost no wespons development and used the katana mainly to bully a few defenceless peasants.

China has possibly the longest blade history, development, mythology and not even the Chinese know about it unless it is a Kung Fu demo in the mall on Chinese New year.

Why the katana so highly entrenched in the entire psyche of the world when it is basically a crow bar with an edge that has done little more than harm defenceless people.

Everything said is totally well researched and unbiased facts.... totally.

What China? China as we know it has only existed for a short time. It has been a region of diverse culture, language and allegiance. Perhaps the right question is what was this weapon called in that corner of China by this particular tribe?

n2s

 

[Alberta Ed]

There is a lot of information on edged weapons, much of it available on-line. Richard F. Burton's The Book of the Sword (1884) is well worth reading. Check out The Japanese Sword Guide (http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/nihonto.htm) if you want to learn about these beautiful works of art and how they were made.

 

[co556guy]

Can o worms, this is

 

[Houlahound]

What China? China as we know it has only existed for a short time. It has been a region of diverse culture, language and allegiance. Perhaps the right question is what was this weapon called in that corner of China by this particular tribe?

n2s

Longest continuous written history in all of humanity, that China.

 

[Houlahound]

Check out The Japanese Sword Guide (http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/nihonto.htm) if you want to learn about these beautiful works of art and how they were made.

Settle down Fanboy.

 

[co556guy]

Longest continuous written history in all of humanity, that China.

While that is true, has that length of written history made them more honorable and judicious, or more cruel and malicious?

I'd say that the while early blade culture may have been advanced greatly by asian cultures 1000+ years ago, the west has advanced blade/steel quality many-fold in many fewer years in more recent history.

Furthermore, the way warfare was conducted, the armor worn, and the fighting styles common to the diseparare regions has influenced the blade designs and metallurgy used.

Damascus steel used to be revered because of it's quality. Today, it's desired due to it's beauty. Modern monosteels will outperform damascus in every other way.

 

[Steely_Gunz]

Settle down Fanboy.

You asked a loaded question. A member of over 20 years gave you a polite response.

If I want to learn something, I try to be receptive.

I am NOT a learned source on any sword. I like katanas well enough, but my personal collection is an "homage" at best via interpretation via Nepali blacksmith. Im always interest in learning more. That's why I come here.

I will concede that a fair bit of the romance with the katana is certainly played up. They are flesh cutting swords that played second fiddle (at best) to the bow when Samurai were engaging in actual warfare. Its actually a real shame the sword gets all the glory when Samurai were phenomenal archers. Katanas are beautiful and incredibly effective slicing machines, but they are in no way all that "tough" or the best weapon for anyone outside of those with high levels of training despite what movies/video games/anime want us to believe. Then again, swords have never been the apex weapon in warfare. Arguably, until the advancement of gun powder made killing each other more efficient both up close and at a distance, the spear did the lion's share of the killing on every battlefield. Western or Eastern, the pointy stick that Grug-Ugh fashioned in a cave 300,000 years ago doled out more dirt naps than any fancy or sexy blade.

At the end of the day, I guess people know about what they are exposed to in pop culture or through passive information download. Look at all the idiots that get 100% of their news from social media. The Japanese weapons (particularly the sword) were romanticized in poetry during peaceful times. It became a focal point Japanese wartime culture and was thus imported into our collective knowledge after WWII. There are tons and tons of other Japanese weapons that were very effective. There are a plethora of Chinese weapons of all sorts of makes and specialities. I think a lot of why they are not top of mind has to do with the fact that China has only recently opened to the West and a generation ago was in many ways 3rd world country with wide swaths of uneducated peasants between a few massive cities. Furthermore, most of what westerners view as "Chinese" is what was exported out of British controlled Hong Kong. 99.99% of the rest of Chinese culture really wasn't brought up much. We have been mostly ignorant as passive observers of all things China short of a couple blurbs in our history books touching on gun powder and the silk road until about 30 years ago.

 

[co556guy]

I agree with Steel_Gunz.

Warfare and swords aren't exactly tied the way the movies make it out to be.

Just like small arms in modern warfare. They are pretty meaningless when you compare number of combatant deaths from artillary and bombing. Sure, they might matter in discrete instances, small arms don't win wars.

Swords were implements of self defense, icons of nobility, or close quarters weapons for the highly trained. Spears, hammers, clubs, etc are all more effective weapons for the less trained. Spears are superior for fighting in formations or other organized situations.

Swords have panache. They require skill and dedication. Not something most people in any of those cultures had.

 

[evilgreg]

I for one have been talking smack about katanas for ages. I mean, I like katanas just fine but the nut jobs claiming we can never replicate the thousand times folded katana's ability to both be so flexible they can be tied in knots but also still be so sharp that they cut through the very fabric of space and time ruin it for me. They're as bad as the geniuses that think that ancient damascus steel had properties superior to the work of modern metallurgy or the folks that are still hoodwinked by an old-timey ginsu salesman's pitch and think that Frank Richtig worked out a magical heat treat that surpasses modern capabilities. Hogwash, all of it.

The history of bladed weapons is interesting enough without a bunch of mystical claptrap being regurgitated by legions of mall ninjas at every turn.

 

[Houlahound]

I think a lot of why they are not top of mind has to do with the fact that China has only recently opened to the West and a generation ago was in many ways 3rd world country with wide swaths of uneducated peasants

I don't think this is accurate, Japan was a far more isolated culture than China. Japan is less genetically diverse and viewed itself as superior to every other culture hence it had almost no influence on any other culture and received no influence from any other culture for most of it's history up until it lost WWII in the 40's.

China in contrast traded with Marco Polo and Chinese people have existed in just about every other place and culture for millennia.

This idea China is isolated is most obviously and demonstrably false.

What is more accurate is they limited access to foreigners into certain location in China, not that Chinese haven't been everywhere else on the planet for a long time.

 

[Danke42]

Too young to catch Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon in the theater I guess.

Full discolsure; more of a Jackie Chan guy myself.

 

[Houlahound]

I for one have been talking smack about katanas for ages. I mean, I like katanas just fine but the nut jobs claiming we can never replicate the thousand times folded katana's ability to both be so flexible they can be tied in knots but also still be so sharp that they cut through the very fabric of space and time ruin it for me. They're as bad as the geniuses that think that ancient damascus steel had properties superior to the work of modern metallurgy or the folks that are still hoodwinked by an old-timey ginsu salesman's pitch and think that Frank Richtig worked out a magical heat treat that surpasses modern capabilities. Hogwash, all of it.

The history of bladed weapons is interesting enough without a bunch of mystical claptrap being regurgitated by legions of mall ninjas at every turn.

This ^^^

 

[KenHash]

A couple of thoughts.
- European blades were very effective against aboriginal people who had no, or limited bladed weapons.
- Their effectiveness is no more or less than any other bladed weapons, in intra-european wars or the crusades against the Muslims or wars with invading Mongols.
- European blades did not "dominate" anything. Firearms did.
- Japan had matchlocks since the mid 1500s. Brought there by the Portugese. They played a major role in the battles for power which ended in 1600. From then until the mid 1800s there was a long period of peace over 200 years during which time Japanese swords developed more towards art, whereas prior, they were mainly weapons first. The last civil war in Japan which resulted in the downfall of the Tokugawa shogunate and the establishment of the Imperial throne was fought with the Minie Rifle. As well as various firearms, as the there was a huge supply globally as a result of the US Civil War having ended. But the firearms were used in conjunction with swords for close quarters combat.
In 1852 Commodore Mathew Perry arrived in Japan leading to the first US-Japan Treaty. There are records of US Naval Officers comparing their cutlasses with Katanas worn by the Samurai officials and being "floored" by their quality, looks and sharpness. Personally, I think this is the first documented indication of the Western fascination with Japanese swords.
- Putting kitchen knives and swords in the same category is pretty silly. The Katana is more than just a weapon in Japanese culture as it symbolized the Bushi class that ruled the country, and remains so even though wearing them in public was banned in 1876.

 

[Mecha]

Cruising through this thread like:

 

[Danke42]

Cruising through this thread like:

Remember what your Dr told you about stress.

 

[Houlahound]

European blades were very effective against aboriginal people who had no, or limited bladed weapons.

Any weapon eg a rock is more effective against aboriginals or non aboriginal people with no or more limited weapons. That's why weapon's are used, was there supposed to be a point other than people with weapons tend to be more effective than people without weapons.... Captain Obvious??

- Their effectiveness is no more or less than any other bladed weapons, in intra-european wars or the crusades against the Muslims or wars with invading Mongols.

Clearly over the fullness of history to date weapons + tactics of the Euros won against every other culture except other Euros.

European blades did not "dominate" anything. Firearms did.

Clearly irrelevant, in a historical blade discussion of bladed weapons in a thread on a blade forum.

The Katana is more than just a weapon in Japanese culture as it symbolized the Bushi class that ruled the country, and remains so even though wearing them in public was banned in 1876.

Agreed, it is a symbol of oppression of the Japanese people by hired thugs doing the dirty work of a corrupt elite. There is no honour in ganging up on defenceless working people with highly resourced and trained thugs armed to the teeth.

 

[craytab]

Any weapon eg a rock is more effective against aboriginals or non aboriginal people with no or more limited weapons. That's why weapon's are used, was there supposed to be a point other than people with weapons tend to be more effective than people without weapons.... Captain Obvious??



Clearly over the fullness of history to date weapons + tactics of the Euros won against every other culture except other Euros.



Clearly irrelevant, in a historical blade discussion of bladed weapons in a thread on a blade forum.



Agreed, it is a symbol of oppression of the Japanese people by hired thugs doing the dirty work of a corrupt elite. There is no honour in ganging up on defenceless working people with highly resourced and trained thugs armed to the teeth.

Ken has forgotten more than you'll ever know about cutlery. Show a little respect.

If you just want to argue with people, you are in the wrong subforum...

 

[jlauffer]

...was there supposed to be a point...Captain Obvious??

Was there supposed to be a point to this thread Captain Obtuse?