Chisel Grind is Growing on Me

[fulloflead]

I used to hate the chisel grind.
Recently I got a Spyderco Sharpmaker and a Snody Chisel-ground neck knife and a couple other chisel-ground blades including (surprisingly) an Emerson Commander (again) which was ACTUALLY hair-poppin' sharp when I got it.

I'm getting a better feel for chisel grinds. The Sharpmaker (with use of the video) certainly helps me sharpen them better. I'm starting not to hate them so much.

That Snody is really something else. The Emerson Commander which I didn't care for the FIRST time I owned one; somehow is better this time - sharper with better quality control.

I'm not ready to say I PREFER chisel grinds, but I'm defenitely leaning away from hating them. I don't quite understand (through experience and usage) the advantage of why someone would INTENTIONALLY use that grind but I think I've come to accept them and leave them the way they are rather than trying to resharpen them with a double-grind all the time. They CAN be made VERY sharp.

Any opinions?

 

[Mike G]

I like chisel grinds alot.

I like that they are easy to sharpen, and for me, they cut very well.

Here is a quote from Ernie Emerson on the chisel grind:

There are several reasons for the chisel grind. For any of you who have ever used a correctly sharpened wood chisel for woodworking, you know what a chisel can do. Although a knife is not a chisel, those properties, when applied to a knife grind have almost magical effect. A chisel ground knife, being beveled, (ground) on one side only, possesses greater strength, (due to increased cross sectional mass) and they cut with an ease not found on any other type of blade. This is because there is no parasitic drag produced by the flat side when cutting --- no drag points. On top of that, they are much easier to sharpen --- you only have to sharpen one side.

You can find this quote at Emerson Knives

 

[fulloflead]

I read that.

I just wish the grind was on the OTHER side like it should be for right-handers.

According to Emerson's site, the choice was cosmetic.

But then...
my Snody is the same way, so who am I to question?

 

[beluga]

Well, I have to admit that I hate the look of a chisel ground blade. It reminds me of salt water fish that only have a face on one side, and plain white on the other side. Kinda freak me out a bit.

However, I bought this Benchmade/Emerson CQC7, and of course it comes with a chisel ground. Did a lot of major cutting with it, and sharpened it a lot. I honestly feel that for some reasons, a chisel ground blade cuts better than one with hollow ground. When I slice a piece of paper, it really bites the edge of the paper. It's something that I commonly find in a carbon bladed knife.

So, chisel ground rocks......still hate the look though, really freak me out !

 

[Keith Montgomery]

Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope! I don't like the way the chisel grind looks and I don't like the way it cuts. I have tried three or four knives with chisel grinds and I won't be trying another. Even when the grind is put on the correct side for a right handed person I haven't found anywhere that the chisel grind excels. Maybe cutting linoleum, but I have a knife that is meant for that.

 

[longbow]

The only chisel grinds that I have owned are of the EKI line. Never liked them that much. Had to do to much work with them to get them sharp. Never came sharp out of the box. Didn't think the QC was up to snuff either.

That being said I just picked up a CQC7 with green scales on a trade. It is much larger than the CQC7A I used to own. At least .5" in blade length and the blade itself is razor sharp. The blade is broader and has more of a drop to it. Fit and finish is wonderful with nicely polished liners etc. etc. They should all be made like this. Would I prefer a grind on the right side of the blade sure but this one particular knife is good to go right from the box. Stropped the edge on some newsprint and the thing easily and I mean easily slices paper, shaves hair, and cuts like a laser. So maybe my tune is changing. Time will tell when it comes time to resharpen.

I have found at least with the Comm's I had and the CQC7 is that I would use my Lansky to sharpen them to adequate sharpness. I would follow the blade profiles to 25 deg and then 30 deg out towards the tip. Then strop on newsprint and then a tablet backer. This seemed to work for me but after all that I figured why bother.

I am carrying slightly smaller knives now currently a Vtech or mini AFCK as an edc. Both still are sharper than the CQC7 I currently own but just aren't as imitidating. But the 7 is stillsharper than any EKI I have owned to date. Matter of fact I am so happy with the CQC I currently have I can't see me in the future sending it down the road. It is that nice. Keep'em sharp

 

[Mark Nelson]

I just got a Emerson Combat Karambit which has a chisel grind. So far I like it. It was very sharp out of the box and while I haven't used it much for general cutting (and won't really) it seems to hold the edge very well. I haven't tried sharpening it yet, I admit that may not be a lot of fun but we will see.

 

[rdangerer]

Originally posted by fulloflead
I just wish the grind was on the OTHER side like it should be for right-handers. According to Emerson's site, the choice was cosmetic.

But then...
my Snody is the same way, so who am I to question?

You are a KNIFE BUYER, and a KNIFE USER, that's who you are to question. And your line of thinking is about exactly what I went through about 4-5 years ago.

I'm with Keith on this, all the way.

You can learn to sharpen a chisel ground, so that argument doesn't hold water. (I've never gotten a sharper edge on a tool than on my FIRST TRY with a jig and water stones on a wood hand plane blade, which is chisel ground ... truly scary, cuts hair above the arm, super jumpin A2 blade, on water stones).

Ernie's comparison of a knife to a chisel is ridiculous, and all an attempt at analogous marketing hype. Totally different tools. Chisels are MORE useful with a chisel grind (you need a flat side to, e.g., chisel out a mortise, or skim glue off of a flat board), whereas a chisel ground knife is LESS useful than a symmetrically ground knife. And Ernie DOES grind on the wrong side for 90% of the (right-handed) population. Try one of his knives for utility work and you'll know... I did, I know, I sold. (how do you say that in Latin?). Bingo... his admission is that it's about aesthetics, if you 1/2 way read between lines.

I tolerate chisel grinds only on knives that are exclusively for self defense. For utility work, they are inferior. Period.

One other spot: a chisel ground chef's knife with a very shallow angle of grind can be useful for pushing the freshly chopped food away from the blade a bit as you chop. Some Japanese chef's knives are set up this way. I don't own one, but am sure it would work fine if ground for a right hander (which I am).

Chisel grinds may be easier for a maker to grind, only one side, so don't have to grind symmetrically or evenly in plunges, etc.

As to drag, a flat ground knife is going to be so close to a chisel ground in terms of drag, I can't imagine you'd notice the difference in use unless you set up experiments and measured with equipment. Edge sharpness and edge geometry would dominate.

In fact, for hard use, I can make the argument that a chisel ground blade would be more likely to encounter lateral stresses (asymmetrical blade) in chopping, if say, you hit a knot, and therefore would be more likely to chip out if all else was equal (edge angle, heat treat, material, etc). The "more cross sectional mass" thing is only on one side.

Now, if RJ Martin chimes in here and tells me I'm full of... uh ... lead on one of these points, then I'll listen and try to reformulate my hardening of the attitude about chisel ground blades.

Chisel ground blades do look more "appropriate", more "traditional" on Japanese knives, I'll give them that. You can't argue tradition, it's based on history. I don't hate the way they look, just dislike them for utility.

Here is another of Ernie's quotes from his web site:

Why do you put the chisel on the front or left side of the blade?

This is an Emerson signature. Being the knifemaker who brought the chisel grind to worldwide recognition, we are often asked; Why do you put the grind on the opposite side of a traditional Japanese Chef's knife? The answer is simple....We are not making chef's knives. Our knives are hard knives meant for hard users. We do not cut many tomatoes. Our tests and those of a major government agency determined that there was no difference between right and left side grinds for use as a tool or weapon. The left side was chosen for purposes of visual cue and reference

As a weapon? Probably true enough. As a tool? BS. "Visual Cue and Reference"? Triumph of knife photogenics and marketing over utility. "We do not cut many tomatoes"? Marketing appeal to armchair commando's.

Ok... that felt good ... a rant early in the day, and now off to enjoy :grumpy: the installation of some more drywall.

This topic has been ranted about en masse in the past... try the search engine for a few old lively debates. Full of opinion, just as you'd hope for.

 

[Crayola]

When using a chisel, you want the flat part of the chisel "underneath" the part you are cutting. The chip of wood you raise goes over the bevel, with the flat of the chisel riding on the wood. This makes for a nice smooth cut. Ditto for chisel ground knives and cutting with them. As stated, many Japanese kitchen blades are chisel ground, and for right handers the grind is on the right side of the blade. With the flat side on your left, you can get nice, eve, thin slices of carrots and such.

Applying this to a fighting knife, a chisel grind on the left side, yes, the LEFT side, makes sense for right handers. For a stab, either side won't matter. For a cut, most cuts made by people are inside cuts, cuttign in towards your body. For a right hander, that is from right to left. Well, in this case you want the flat on the bottom, and the bevel on the top. This means that the left side grind is what you want! However, this is only good for a pure fighter.

I recently re-read what Goddard had to say on chisel grinds in one of his books that I have. He made the point that a chisel grind with no or very small secondary bevel will not make the blade track to one side like a chisel ground blade with a large secondary bevel. So that is something to take into consideration with your chisel ground blades. If your CGB is tracking to one side, thin out the bevel!

Which brings up some statements about CGBs that really bug me. A CGB has greater cross sectional mass? Uh... a thicker edge will have a greater cross-sectional mass than a thinner one! SHEESH! I don't understand how a blanket statement about chisel grinds likr that can be made. other factors aside, a thicker edge will be stronger than a thinner one. A convex edge is probably the strongest edge format anyways.

I do believe that drag can be reduced with chisel ground blades. Phil Hartsfeld demonstrates this with one of his yori toshis (so I have read), puncturing a business card with his blade more easily than witha fairbairn/sykes blade. Though I think there are other issues involved there (americanized tanto tip cuts through its target, while a dagger tip doesn't really do that), the one flat side won't have as many drag points as, say, a dagger.

As far as sharpening them goes, I don't think they are any faster, or necessarily easier, to sharpen. What you'd do on both sides of a double groudn blade, you do on one side of a chisel groudn blade! So no savings there. One benefit may be that you only have to hold the angle on one side. To properly sharpen a chisel ground blade though, you really need to lay the flat side down on a fine stone when sharpening. "kissing" the back side with an abrasive to try to knock the burr off will eventually put on a microbevel on the flat side. If you haev a chisel ground blade and think that the chisel properties of the blade make it a better piece for you, then you realyl ought to sharpen it like a chisel! Groind on the edge bevel with your medium stone, then rub the flat on a fine stone to knock off the burr. Then hit the edge with a fine stone, then the back, alternating for a few strokes. Voila! Maybe the finish isn't super duper nice, but at least you will still have a true chisel ground blade

 

[Mike G]

To each their own.

Now, if RJ Martin chimes in here and tells me I'm full of... uh ... lead on one of these points, then I'll listen and try to reformulate my hardening of the attitude about chisel ground blades.

Why is that? Is he the only person who is an 'authority' in your eyes on chisel grinds, and his opinion holds more water than ours?

Or do you have your nose so far up his ass, you don't remember what sunshine looks like?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Here is a quote from Ernie Emerson on the chisel grind:

A chisel ground knife, being beveled, (ground) on one side only, possesses greater strength, (due to increased cross sectional mass) ...

This is false. A chisel ground blade and v-ground blade fully ground on the same stock have the same cross section (both have 1/2 the area of the full stock). A chisel ground blade is generally weaker for the same cross section as it sees uneven forces in use, see work done by Jeff Clark cutting bone.

This is because there is no parasitic drag produced by the flat side when cutting --- no drag points.

The flat side is one entire friction contact point, this is why the Japanese use hollows on such grinds. The hollows also make sharpening much easier by lowering the contact points.

On top of that, they are much easier to sharpen --- you only have to sharpen one side.

You can do the same thing on a v-ground edge if you want. You can even keep it perfectly even if you switch the starting side from one session to another.

In general chisel ground knives are more difficult to sharpen as because all the angle is on one side, it is difficult to fit them on most jig or v-rod systems and you have to freehand which is a problem for a lot of people.

As for why Rob would listed to R.J., I can't speak for him, but I greatly respect R.J.'s opinion on knives in general. He also does a lot of chisel grinds which is why his name comes up, and he uses very little hype (none in fact that I recall).

I have discussed chisel grinds with R.J. and he is quite familiar with their abilties and uses. If you have not talked to him yet about them Rob it would be worth your time to do so.

Most of the hype about chisel ground knives come from comparing them to vastly thicker ground knives and using this to promote the type of grind when in fact it was the cross section which was the critical factor.

Take a chisel ground knife with an included edge angle of 30 degrees and compare it to a thickly ground TOPS and the chisel ground comes off easily the winner. Compare it to an Opinel and it is vastly outcut.

-Cliff

 

[MrZ]

.

 

[rdangerer]

Originally posted by CODE 3
Why is that? Is he the only person who is an 'authority' in your eyes on chisel grinds, and his opinion holds more water than ours?

Or do you have your nose so far up his ass, you don't remember what sunshine looks like?

RJ makes both chisel, and symmetrically ground blades which are usually hollow ground. He isn't "committed" to either style to the exclusion of the other (like some makers are). He also isn't committed to Japanese styled blades to the exclusion of more Americanized tactical styled knives. RJ is also very performance oriented in the way he designs and produces knives (heat treat, ergonomics, steel selection, sharpness NIB), and seems to be high on the substance scale, and low on the hype scale. That's all. And that's of course just my opinion. YOMV.

I'm also trying to indicate I'm open to learning if there is something I've neglected to consider.

Code 3, it would appear that I indirectly insulted your viewpoints by challenging the chisel grind's general utility, and Emerson's viewpoints. Indirect. Unintended.

But, thanks for the personal insult, Code. :footinmou
Actual content, outlining some detail around why you like chisel ground knives, would have been more useful and interesting.

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[roshi]

Chisel grinds still bring out passionate opinions.:footinmou

I've learned to live with chisel grinds because I've come to appreciate the greatness of Emerson knives (simple, ergonomic. reliable, easy to maintain, great customer service). Oh, I still prefer regular symmetrical flat grinds. It's interesting to note that the latest Emerson production knife, the CQC-10, is a "normal" grind. Maybe Ernie has noted that the vast majority of knife buyers prefer it.

 

[rdangerer]

Originally posted by roshi
Chisel grinds still bring out passionate opinions.:footinmou

Yeah, they do. But then tend to be less rational than the 9mm vs. .45acp debate.

Opinions and logical arguments are fine...

Indeed, you can pick your way around Emerson's product line and avoid chisel grinds by selecting the V-ground, but single-final-bevel-edge. Again, edge ground on the wrong side for right handed utility use, but the disadvantage is reduced somewhat since it's V-ground, the edge is closer to centerline. They still cut weird in utility use.

My Mach-I and my production CQC8 are pretty much relegated to carry during times when self defense is a high priority and utility use is likely to be incidental. Why? Ernie is a very good knife designer... these have a very secure in-hand feel, mostly because of the deep index finger recess. The CQC8 seems to be better built than some past Emerson production models I had.

 

[ofelas]

I've carried an Emerson CQC6 as an duty folder + EDC for approx. 10 years. All pro/anti chisel ground points aside, I've used the CQC6 twice; didn't hear any complaints on either occasion.
My in-uniform as well as civilian EDC folder from tomorrow will be a Spyderco Military, but only because I need a fully serrated blade, and it's time for my well worn CQC6 to retire gracefully among my memorabilia.
In the end, whatever feels most comfortable in the hand will perform the best; the steel, grind, size, materials etc. help only to a small extent.

 

[calyth]

Even if it's sharp, it's horrible at cutting straight.
I personally think anything on a knife that prevents you from easily cutting the way you want it to isn't worth putting on there.

 

[spyken]

my emerson would be easier to sharpen on my edgepro if it was ground on the right side, as I am right-handed. be that as it may, I managed to strop the emerson (that I used to own) to a hair-popping edge. btw, it was a CQC7. I can never buy a commander/mini-commander as I would have real trouble sharpening the recurve using my left hand on the edgepro. sigh.

 

[Buzzbait]

My only chisel ground blades are the sheepsfoots (sheepsfeet?) on my stockmans. Chisels are great for woodworking, but I wouldn't one for utility cutting. They're just too limiting.

 

[Don Luis]

I have never done any testing or scientific observations, my comments will be based only on feelings and some 40 years of using knives.

I don´t like chisel grinds on knives, I don´t feel they cut any better, are any stronger, or have any less drag than a symetric edge with the same compound angle.

I don´t feel chisel grinds are any easier to sharpen.

I do feel that when you cut there is a tendency to follow the bisectris of the angle on the edge, so a chisel grind tends to go to a side.

I have reprofiled chisel grinds to symetric edges in some knives, particularly knives that were originaly serrated or partially serrated, and like them much better after the change.

I have not reprofiled my japanese kitchen knives, because I get a feeling of somehow destroying their soul, or some mystic thing that I can´t really explain, but I think they would cut better if I did.

I also use wood chisels and like the chisel grind in them, I feel that is because in a chisel you want the force applyed to the tool to be in line with the flat side of the edge that follows the cut, this doesn´t apply to knives.

Wood planes also have blades with chisel grinds, I feel that is because planes are made so that the angle between the base of the plane and the top of the blade is best with the flat side of the blade facing up, this doesn´t apply to knives either.

If I wanted the generally best edge type on a knife I would probably think of a convex edge with the curves on the sides being parabolic, but I don´t think there would actualy be much difference in practical use.

A chisel-like edge with one convex side and one fully flat side may be an interesting thing to try for those who like to experiment, take your chisel grind to a mouse pad. Then hollow the flat side a bit to reduce drag.