Choosing a good knife set for the money.

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oguruma

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Jan 3, 2010
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Alright, I am in the process of upgrading everything I own, to high quality, long-lasting, and enjoyable to own items (except my furniture, because PCSing your furniture sucks). Right now I am focused on my kitchen items. I use a crappy wal-mart knife set right now and it wouldn't be worth my time to sharpen these blades. I want a good knife set to use, and I could use some help from the BF community.

So I have some questions:

What kind of steel is preferred? I would assume that high stain resistance steels such as 420/440 and VG-10 are good? I don't care if I have to keep them out of the dishwasher (dishwashing is my wife's task anyway).

What brands should I start looking at? I am stationed in Germany right now, so I might go off-post and start looking at some of the German stores, but I need brand recommendations.

Do you guys recommend buying as a set, or individually? I like the idea of having all of the blades match, but buying individually lets you choose the specific blades you like.

What is the cheapest I can get a good quality set for? I want atleast a large chef knife, a medium sized 4" (or so) utility knife (probably be most used), and a smaller paring/slicer.

Thanks in advance guys.
 
Unless you can get a set or your preferred brand and type for less than the cost of the three knives you want,
just buy the three separately.

Reading An Edge in the Kitchen is very useful. Generally you can divide non-junk knife steels into three categories:

1. High carbon, non rust resistant tool steels (hard to find outside of Japanese knives).

2. Traditional European kitchen knife stainless steels. Quite stain resistant
but fairly soft which leads to the thick edge geometry on most main European
knives.

3. High alloy stainless steels with lots of carbides such as VG-10. More common
in Japanese knives such as Shun. Harder and more wear resistant than the
steel in traditional European knives which supports thinner edge geometry,
better performance but is less stain resistant, harder to sharpen and more
prone to chipping.

Most custom makers use either the first or third category above.

IMHO: 420 anything, 440A and 440B are junk as is anything labeled "surgical
stainless". 440C is OK. If it's just described as 440 you can count on it not
being 440C.
 
My wife has had this set of knives for about 15 years, I never paid much attention to it. A couple weeks ago, I went to the Cutco Visitor's Center at the factory in Olean NY, and I saw the exact same set there, with a price tag of over $900!! I about shhhhh.....
When I came home I told my wife about it and she kinda laughed and told me since I never asked, she never told me what she spent on them.....about $700 at the time.
I look at them kinda differently now as I pass by them....I've even sharpened some.;)
 

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sets are nice to look at but you really will not use half theknives in them and if they are all ground the same way you dont get the bennies of the style / use of the different shapes

i use just 3 knives here t the house (tho need ot as a parrer to the mix)
a heaver ish (read hard workign ) chef 8-10 inch depending on the kitchen space and comfort level
a vegie knife in the 6inch range
and a bread/ carving knife
then the parer

i skip the heavy chef as i dont car if i hurt a knife i have made i can fix it easy
and instead of a parer i have a large petty knife
 
rayban said:
My wife has had this set of knives for about 15 years, I never paid much attention to it. A couple weeks ago, I went to the Cutco Visitor's Center at the factory in Olean NY, and I saw the exact same set there, with a price tag of over $900!! I about shhhhh.....
When I came home I told my wife about it and she kinda laughed and told me since I never asked, she never told me what she spent on them.....about $700 at the time.
I look at them kinda differently now as I pass by them....I've even sharpened some.;)
Click to expand...

cutco knives are made from 440A
 
Okay, here are my thoughts, for what they may be worth:
1) I agree, don't buy a set --- you won't use most of them much anyway.
2) Buy the best you can get/afford
3) Handle as many types as you can and look at how you hold/use a knife. KEEP that in mind when buying.
4) Get knives that are forged, not just ground out

I have used heinkls, wustofs, sabatiers, chicago cutlery, and globals... and still lean toward wusthof, but globals take less care and more abuse, heinkel has been hit and miss.

Knives that you need, and will use and the order of priority:
1) Chef knife -- go with a classic french curve. I hate the japanese chef knives. Go as big as you can handle on a regular basis (most people this is reasonably an 8"-9", I like a 10 or 11 but that's what I like)-- in the long run, the bigger knife does more work faster. This is the knife you will use the most for the most amount of things, so if you can't do some things with a bigger knife (your skill level) go for the smaller. I like to have some heft with my chef knife and this is why I don't like the global. If you can, and want to, get a big chef knife and a smaller one (6" or so with big belly) it can make you life easier.

2) Offset bread knife- wide, but thin and big toothed

3) paring knife --- here you can go cheap and sharp. Throw away when dull and buy another. Keeping a high end, high carbon paring knife in shape can be a pain and then you end up losing it.

4) Boning knife --- Not everyone needs one. if you get one, get a good one. Not completely rigid, but on that end. If you get one, beware: this is invariably the first knife non-kitchen people and ladies will grab and use for non boning tasks and they WILL screw it up, requiring more maintenance than it should take. I hide mine from my wife (yes... I hide my boner from my wife).

5) Chinese cleaver-- if you can learn how to work one of these, they are a great knife to have. Take the time to learn, these can be tricky and WILL cut the unwary for some reason. Cutting vegetables and such (nicely!!), then using to transfer the product to another surface or a pan works slick.

6) Scimitar --- If you buy large pieces of meat and break them down, it is good to have. Cheap ones in stainless are worthless after a few uses. By buying strip loins and such and cutting your own steaks, this will pay for itself. Plus it looks wicked on your knife rack.

7) Birds beak ---unless you do a lot of intricate paring activities in your hand, don't get one.

8) utility knives --- don't bother, they are worthless and mediocre for most tasks.

I finally broke down and had Jim Rodebaugh make me a chef knife to my hand and about 10 1/2" blade in an old school french knife. It is L-6, bronze fittings, and desert ironwood... it is the finest knife I have ever held and I use it constantly. That comes at a high price tag, though.
 
I completely agree with "Handle as many as you can". The best knife handle is one that feels good to you.
 
I've got a couple different kitchen knives. A PJ Tomes kitchen knife, produced for him by a foreign company; a couple of Old Cutlery butcher knives, an old Case "CHROMIUM XX" butcher knife, a Spyderco kitchen knife, and a couple of Tramontina kitchen knives. The Spyderco and the Tramontinas get the most kitchen time, most of that the Tramontinas. Plastic red handles, easy to sharpen high carbon stainless (440A I am hoping ;)). Can leave them in the sink overnight and not worry about finding a heavily stained blade the next day.

I would love to be able to pick up one of LR's kitchen knives though.
 
WyoNonSmith said:
Okay, here are my thoughts, for what they may be worth:
1) I agree, don't buy a set --- you won't use most of them much anyway.
2) Buy the best you can get/afford
3) Handle as many types as you can and look at how you hold/use a knife. KEEP that in mind when buying.
4) Get knives that are forged, not just ground out

I have used heinkls, wustofs, sabatiers, chicago cutlery, and globals... and still lean toward wusthof, but globals take less care and more abuse, heinkel has been hit and miss.

Knives that you need, and will use and the order of priority:
1) Chef knife -- go with a classic french curve. I hate the japanese chef knives. Go as big as you can handle on a regular basis (most people this is reasonably an 8"-9", I like a 10 or 11 but that's what I like)-- in the long run, the bigger knife does more work faster. This is the knife you will use the most for the most amount of things, so if you can't do some things with a bigger knife (your skill level) go for the smaller. I like to have some heft with my chef knife and this is why I don't like the global. If you can, and want to, get a big chef knife and a smaller one (6" or so with big belly) it can make you life easier.

2) Offset bread knife- wide, but thin and big toothed

3) paring knife --- here you can go cheap and sharp. Throw away when dull and buy another. Keeping a high end, high carbon paring knife in shape can be a pain and then you end up losing it.

4) Boning knife --- Not everyone needs one. if you get one, get a good one. Not completely rigid, but on that end. If you get one, beware: this is invariably the first knife non-kitchen people and ladies will grab and use for non boning tasks and they WILL screw it up, requiring more maintenance than it should take. I hide mine from my wife (yes... I hide my boner from my wife).

5) Chinese cleaver-- if you can learn how to work one of these, they are a great knife to have. Take the time to learn, these can be tricky and WILL cut the unwary for some reason. Cutting vegetables and such (nicely!!), then using to transfer the product to another surface or a pan works slick.

6) Scimitar --- If you buy large pieces of meat and break them down, it is good to have. Cheap ones in stainless are worthless after a few uses. By buying strip loins and such and cutting your own steaks, this will pay for itself. Plus it looks wicked on your knife rack.

7) Birds beak ---unless you do a lot of intricate paring activities in your hand, don't get one.

8) utility knives --- don't bother, they are worthless and mediocre for most tasks.

I finally broke down and had Jim Rodebaugh make me a chef knife to my hand and about 10 1/2" blade in an old school french knife. It is L-6, bronze fittings, and desert ironwood... it is the finest knife I have ever held and I use it constantly. That comes at a high price tag, though.
Click to expand...

That was very in-depth, and I really appreciate you taking the time. If you don't mind, I have a few questions.

Why do you say it is hard to maintain a pairing knife as opposed to other blades?

Is the Wusthof Classic Chef/cooks knife what you would call a "classic french curve"? I am stationed in Germany right now, and the Wusthof knives are everywhere. The Class Chef/cook knife in 8" feels like it would be good balance for me, and the mrs. My wife said she liked the Wusthof classic, but she isn't as picky as me, and even though I am the soldier, and she is the housewife, I consider myself to be the much better cook.

What do you recommend for sharpening your kitchen blades? I am not good at freehand knife sharpening. I like pre-angled sharpeners to take the guesswork out of the angle, but I know that different blades have different angles/edge geometery.

You said you use the Wusthof knives. Can you comment on the X50Cr steel? Any ideas what that is similar to? I have quite a bit of experience with steels found in folding/utility fixed blades, but not so much in kitchen blades.

Thanks again,
Jeremy
 
In my opinion, and experience with multiple chef knives, that much curve in a chef knife is detrimental but its personal preference. Shun chef knives have as much belly as the German knives, if not more. German knives will give you a jack of all trades that need very regular maintenance (steeling) and will let you do most cutting tasks in the kitchen including cutting though bones and shells, but are lacking in the department of cutting performance and special cuts like very thin slices. If you can separate your boning tasks from your general cutting tasks and use a boning type knife for those, a Japanese chef knife will probably be much more enjoyable to use. If you just want a knife you can use and abuse, a Victorinox gives you about as much performance as the high end German knives, without the high end price tags.
 
The X50Cr steels are .5% carbon (that's the X50 part). I think that Cr is about 14.5%
and if the name ends something like V15 there's a little vanadium as well.

Clearly it works, but IMHO there's too little carbon for a really good blade. Even AEB-L
is something like .65%. VG10 is more like 1%. While there are valid arguments for both
AEB-L and VG10, I don't buy the ones for X50Cr.
 
Dan Pierson said:
The X50Cr steels are .5% carbon (that's the X50 part). I think that Cr is about 14.5%
and if the name ends something like V15 there's a little vanadium as well.

Clearly it works, but IMHO there's too little carbon for a really good blade. Even AEB-L
is something like .65%. VG10 is more like 1%. While there are valid arguments for both
AEB-L and VG10, I don't buy the ones for X50Cr.
Click to expand...

What are some examples of better kitchen knife steels?
 
Warning, not all of the following is from my personal experience.

AEB-L (a.k.a. 13C26): Very stain resistant, takes a keen edge, easy to sharpen, won't hold an edge as long as some others.

CPM 154 CM: Many maker's favorite. Probably not as stain resistant as AEB-L but has pretty fine hard carbides for long edge holding and sharpening difficulty. Polishes very well.

VG10: Similar in many ways to CPM 154 CM. Found in production Japanese knives such as Shun. Not used by custom makers in the USA because we can't get it.

440C/ATS-34/154 CM: One step down from CPM 154 CM but still good.

O1: High carbon, very non-stainless oil hardening tool steel. Can make excellent carbon steel kitchen knives if properly heat treated.

A2: High carbon, non-stainless air hardening tool steel. Known for taking a very fine edge. Another excellent steel for kitchen knives.

Various simpler high carbon steels (1084/1095/W1/W2 in the USA, white steel or blue steel in Japan, something else in Europe): Forging steels, can make excellent kitchen knives.

If you want to learn more about German steels and see some truly mind blowing kitchen knives look up Roman Landes. He's a German metallurgist and knife maker who was kind enough to come to Ashokan last year. Superb work! Sit down before asking the prices...
 
oguruma said:
What are some examples of better kitchen knife steels?
Click to expand...

There are so many other things that make a knife besides steel. Unless you have a specific thing in mind when buying a knife (like extra long edge retention, or highest edge stability) there are other things that impact the cutting performance more than steel.
 
Why do you say it is hard to maintain a pairing knife as opposed to other blades?
>>> The small blade and the curve. You would think it would be just as easy to maintain as a pocket knife...but it ain't, particularly with good high carbon. Often times I have seen paring knives that have been honed down in an attempt to sharpen them and they end up straight instead of curved and the edge is uneven when it needs to be consistant. Most people do not really use a paring knife enough to need a terribly heavy one, so it is a place that you can downsize. Any the are very easy and cheap to replace. I paid $60+ for my wustof paring knife when I was cooking professionally, I did use it a lot, in sharpening I screwed it up... and I found that I used the el-cheapo thin stainless throw away more often anyway.

Is the Wusthof Classic Chef/cooks knife what you would call a "classic french curve"? I am stationed in Germany right now, and the Wusthof knives are everywhere. The Class Chef/cook knife in 8" feels like it would be good balance for me, and the mrs. My wife said she liked the Wusthof classic, but she isn't as picky as me, and even though I am the soldier, and she is the housewife, I consider myself to be the much better cook.
>>> Yes, this is the one... although I like a LITTLE less curve than the modern ones you see the most of. Mine (wustof classic) has been to hell and back with me and is easy to maintain. Built right, tapers to the tip for fine dicing right at the tip (think garlic cloves), stout at the heel (think cutting chicken bones), even across the belly for chopping. Learn how to use the curve of the knife and practice; look for a video or instrction book, there are a jillion of them.

What do you recommend for sharpening your kitchen blades? I am not good at freehand knife sharpening. I like pre-angled sharpeners to take the guesswork out of the angle, but I know that different blades have different angles/edge geometery.
>>> I use as long a tri-stone as I can get and each stroke uses every inch of it whether I am sharpening a short knife or a long (note, too many of them end up bowed in the center because other people focus their time just in the center, and these make it really hard to shrpen properly). They are not cheap. The pre-angled sets can work well. Really, though, you shouldn't have to sharpen very often if you maintain properly, use a steel, and possibly a honing strop... when I was using my knives every day, I sharpened 3 or 4 times a year max; As such, just find a professional that knows what he is doing and have them do it for $20 or so... your knives will last much longer.

You said you use the Wusthof knives. Can you comment on the X50Cr steel? Any ideas what that is similar to? I have quite a bit of experience with steels found in folding/utility fixed blades, but not so much in kitchen blades.
>> I think it is good steel, all around... I am not an expert on this either, but I think it is kind of like 52100 with a bit of chromium. My custom, made by a master smith who makes fighter bowies (which is really close to the process of making a chef knife), is l-6 tool steel and was a bastard for him to make... it takes a lot more attention than my wusthofs, but I love it. I am in the process of making some damascus with 1085 or 1095 and 15n20, which will be forged into some chef knives, a hybrid chinese cleaver, and a kick ass scimitar.
 
Avoid purchasing a set as most contain knives that may not be useful. Instead, select a few essential knives and add on as the need arises. My must haves are a chef’s knife and paring or petty, followed by bread knife, slicing / carving and cleaver.

· Cleavers, boning type knives are useful for butchering your own meats, but if you buy pre-portioned meats, skip them.
· Slicing / carving knives are more efficient, but a long chef knife will work.
· Bread knife (~$75) the reversed scalloped edges (MAC, Shun, Wüsthof) work better than a typical serrated edge (particular on hard, crusted artisan breads), and supposedly can be re-sharpened. If you don’t mind some extra crumbs, and want to save a few bucks, a Forschner or any decent (~$20) serrated knife will get the job done.
· Paring knives normally aren’t used against a cutting board or for difficult items, so a high quality blade is not needed. The Forschner and Kuhn Rikon paring knives (<$10) have finely grained, thin, flexible blades.
· The Chef’s knife will likely be your main workhorse, so choose the best one that fits your needs. Your choice will sort of boil down to blade shape (German or French are most popular) and the European (soft) or Japanese (hard) steel camp.

Personally, I’ve always referred to the Wusthof, Shun blade shape as “German”. It’s wide heel, pronounced “belly” curve, and curved tip favors cutting strokes that keep part of the blade (often the tip) in contact with the cutting board – “rock-chopping” (rocking against the belly), and “heel cuts” (cutting with the heel of the blade). Whereas, Sabatier (and most western-shaped Japanese chef’s knifes) have the “French” shaped blade. It’s more triangular, narrower, flatter cutting edge, pointy tip shape favors keeping the blade parallel to the board -- “draw slicing” (pulling from heel to tip or sliding from tip to heel) and push cuts (pushing down/ forward).

European knives commonly use X50CrMov15 (or something similar), hardened to (~52-56HRC), and sharpened at 20 degrees. The steel is very stain / rust resistant, easily sharpened, but also easily dulled (needs to honed frequently). The combination of toughness, thickness and pliability lets them handle heavy-duty chores, withstand misuse, but also makes them heavy, thick and ponderous.

Japanese knives commonly use steels hardened to (~58–65HRC), tend to be much lighter, thinner and can take more acute edges and stay sharper – longer. But are more difficult to sharpen, more easily damaged from improper usage, and are not made for chopping / impacting hard items (shells, bones, frozen food) or prying.
 
I'll try to add what little I can to the already great advice above.

First, I highly recommend that you buy individually. This way you can focus on the knives that you will use most. The majority of home cooks will only need a couple of quality blades (I use a chef or parer 90% of the time).

Ergonomics and steel are both very important to consider. Be careful of thinking that "forged blades are always better". Quality blades can be made either by forging or stock removal techniques. Of the quality production kitchen blades I've handed, the forged ones (Wusthof Classic) were actually much less pleasant to use than the stock removal ones (especially the Shun Kaji). The Shuns were far superior to the Wusthofs in ergonomics, edge quality, and edge retention (they were also much more expensive).

Choosing the right ergonomics is going to come down to trying the blades out for yourself. Handle the knives to get a feel for the balance, and feel for any pressure points from the handle. Different handles work better for different people.

Steel choice is also a personal thing that depends on your cutting and sharpening preferences. I personally prefer a very hard and acute edge, but I am also well equipped to handle and maintain it.

I think my Mother's experiences will be useful for me to relate here. About ten years ago, my mom started putting together her first set of "good" knives (Wusthof classic). She had no real sharpening experience when she bought those knives. As a result, it wasn't long before they became as dull as butter knives (despite periodic use of the "sharpening" steel). She pretty much lived with them being dull until I learned to sharpen and offered to sharpen up her knives. This improved performance greatly, but I noticed that they never sharpened up like my Kershaw pocket knives did. The little sheepsfoot paring was especially troublesome. I am convinced to this day that there must have been something wrong with the heat treat on that one.

Fast forward to the first knife I made for her. It was intended as a replacement to that paring and was made from CPM 154 (@ 59rc) and kingwood. To be honest, it was designed poorly and didn't get used much (I have since reground it into a very nice blade that gets used every day). The second paring knife was a much better blade. It was made from thin CPM 154 stock (@ 61Rc), blackwood and curly teak. There was one condition when I gave her the knife: When I visited again, the knife had to be sharp. My mom doesn't have specialized sharpening equipment, but she does have diamond gem cutting laps that can be used as makeshift hones. Learning to sharpen properly improved the performance of every one of her knives. I was very proud the day that she called to say that she was whittling hair with her paring knife.

Now she has sharpening skills and a variety of knives. The knives she picks up most frequently are the ones I made from CPM 154. The biggest reason is that they are sharper and stay sharp longer and the handles are more comfortable. She tends to complain when she has to use the Wusthof chef to cut larger items, because it simply isn't as nice to use (I have yet to give her a chef knife).

I guess the point of this anecdote is to show that even someone with average cutting and sharpening experience can benefit from a blade with higher hardness and better ergonomics. Both aspects are necessary. Remember the first knife i gave her: the steel was excellent, but the blade shape just didn't work very well.

Phillip
 
phill
i have 2 sisters that want knives and a mom that is frightened of my work :) but i know how it goes once they get to use a good knife (imm slow to get there "orders" done )
 
butcher_block said:
phill
i have 2 sisters that want knives and a mom that is frightened of my work :) but i know how it goes once they get to use a good knife (imm slow to get there "orders" done )
Click to expand...

Ha, I can't get my brother or dad to even touch my razor, so I know what you mean.
 
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