choosing springs

Joined
Feb 25, 2002
Messages
114
Hi Bill
Just read about how you choose spring steels to make kukris. If I send you a spring, can you make a kukri out of it? I thought that's kind of amusing, it's like one of those tourist trap machines. You stick in a penny and a quarter, and they'll machine will smash the penny into a oval shaped thing with some pattern on it. Can I send you money and a leaf spring can get back a Kukri:D Your knife are not tourist trap of course.
Mercedes is best? how about porsche or bmw. I'll do some research on leaf springs
Andrew
 
:confused: :confused: :confused: here, as well. Abear, the kamis use Merc truck springs. It is a European version of 5160, and responds to the hammer and heat treating the way the kamis expect it to, to make the best blade. It is also "worked" steel, in that its' life on the roads in India (probably several hundred thousand "miles of BAD road") make it better for this purpose than even new barstock. Different kamis have different likes in steel - an article in one of the knife magazines,by one of their writers trekking there, told of him buying steel at a scrap yard for a Khukuri. The dealer asked where it was to be made, and hearing the village name, sold the writer a leaf spring from a jeep, "He likes this stuff best".
 
Originally posted by Abear
Hi Bill
If I send you a spring, can you make a kukri out of it? ....Mercedes is best? how about porsche or bmw. I'll do some research on leaf springs
Andrew

Andrew - you might find sending the spring rather expensive ;)

I believe Mercedes is used because porsche & bmw are not so common in India (which is where the steel is salvaged from, at least for the most part I believe).

B.
 
Sorry for the confusion. I read on the himilaya import page that the knives were made from leaf springs. The kami would choose a mercedes spring if they could find it, then saab, then japanese. I was kind of curious as to what's the difference between them, so being a mechanical engineer, I did a bit of research. Here's what I found out.

Most leaf springs are made from 5160 steel. the steel nomenclature 50xx(x) cr .27 to .65 % by weight
51xx(x) cr .8 to 1.05
52xx(x) cr 1.45
the xx(x) stands for points of carbon. 100 point=1% by weight
100points of carbon is very hard,strong, but also kind of brittle. Ball bearings by the way is made from 52100

Among the spring materials, there's
music wires-
UNS G10850
ANSI 1085
ASTM A228-51
the best, toughes, and most widely used for small springs. has the higest tensile strength and can withstand higher stress under repeated loading than any other spring material. But is usually available only in small size.

oil temper
UNS G10650
AISI 1065
ASTM 229-41
general purpose spring steel used for coil spring, it is cheaper than music wire and used to save money

Hard drawn wire.
UNS G10660
AISI 1066
ASTM S227-47
THe cheapes general purpose spring steel.

Chrome Vanadium
UNS G61500
AISI 6150
ASTM 231-41
The most poular alloy spring steel for condition involving higher stress than can be used with the high carbon steels. Also good for shock and impact loads.

Chrome Silicon
UNS G92540
AISI 9254 This is excellent material for highly stressed springs that require long life and are subject to shcok loading. Rockwell hardness of C50 to C 53 are quite common. And the material may be used up to 250C

Got the above list from Mechanical engineering design, 5th edition. Shigley and Mischke. Huh wonder why 5160 was not listed? Anyway, that satisfied a bit of my curiousity. I'm still curious as to what alloy each car company uses. Anyone knows?
Andrew
 
Andrew, the kamis hunt specifically for Mercedes truck springs, and I would guess that their selection is the result of much trial and error, as well as Bura's experience. Mercedes uses spec steels, much as Smith & Wesson chooses a steel, has their own metalurgists develop and tweak it a bit, and then order to that specification. Truck vs. car vs. light car specs will vary as well. My dad was the metalurgist in the family, and I took very little from him, sad to say, so the rest doesn't mean much to me. I'd love to see what Bura could do with a 52100 blade, once he learned the steel, but his family line probably took some 400 years to get him to the place he is today, and I don't have that much time left :D
 
Originally posted by Walosi
...It is also "worked" steel, in that its' life on the roads in India (probably several hundred thousand "miles of BAD road") make it better for this purpose than even new barstock...


Can you explain this point a little further Wal? How does the brutal pounding of thousands of miles affect the steel in such a way that it becames a better blade steel?:confused:
 
Originally posted by CoalBlack



Can you explain this point a little further Wal? How does the brutal pounding of thousands of miles affect the steel in such a way that it becames a better blade steel?:confused:

If there's a weakness in the steel the 'thousands of miles of brutal pounding' will reveal it. It's like free testing ;)

Walosi can probably explain better than I.

B.
 
To the best of my knowledge the only steel that's been used in BirGorkha to date is springs from MB heavy trucks and buses. There seems to be an endless supply for which I'm thankful. The kamis will not make a khukuri from the Tata springs.
 
it is a free test for weakness, but it is also improved as a forging medium in that it has been "work hardened" or "work strengthened". Some bladesmiths use sections of rail, that has been "packed" by thousands of freight car wheel impacts (sections adjacent to the joints between rail sections). Used springs are the same (but different) in that the xillions of flexings and jolts have worked out the molecular flaws and alignments, to the point that even if it not useable as a spring any longer, it is still an excellent medium for hammer and anvil. Much of the work involved in hammer-forging a blade is shaping, and then packing the steel to eliminate "spongy" areas which would not heat treat or form properly. There are bladesmiths who make blades, and master blacksmiths who make blades. Both "read the steel" as they work, by sound and feel of the strike, and can tell when it is evenly packed, needs re-heating, etc. A master 'smith can forge a crankshaft for a small engine to within 1/1000" of the finished product, leaving the final grinding to an absolute minimum (tell them about Red, Tsimi). The kamis make most of the iron and steel implements in a village, and qualify in the "master" category.

"Work hardened" steel goes through the process faster and easier, and makes a better blade. Since the kamis earn "per blade" it is to their advantage to have the most workable, best steel available. I doesn't hurt us a darn bit, either :D
 
I'm a bit duboius about idea that spring steel is made better by working it. I've heard the same thing said about the handforged katanas made by Paul Chen in China.

I would think that the work a spring has to do is more likely to introduce microfractures and stress points into a spring than to improve the steel. Also, wouldn't the annealing process in forging remove any effect of work hardening?

Seems like this might be a good question for the guru over at AnvilFire, the blacksmith site. Hey - Didn't Johan post a discussion about khukuri steel a while back?

Pat
 
couldn't find it on bladeforums, so I looked on my HD. I'll repost the article in it's entirety, I hope Johan doesn't mind.

Author's note to forumites: I invite you all to please look at this draft article with the purpose of criticising it severely, and in this way you will help me (if you will be so kind) to upgrade it into something a bit more useful than it is now. This is the first of two articles, the second one being "Heat Treatment of Khukuri Steel", so logically all significant references to heat treatment in this first article has been deliberately suppressed.
If you bring out well-meaning criticism, and I hope you all do, please do it in such a way that I can easily react to it. Don't say eg. "It's not too clear, really..." because I have accessed as many pieces of information, including many websites suggested by forumites, as possible in the time and under the circum stances. Actually please suggest concrete improvements or correct existing sentences in your replies. I don't mean for these articles to be solely under my own authorship.

I personally believe this article is not finished yet, because in my own mind I still have questions. I will put these questions in the text, after the words: "Author still confused" (more than normally).

Please remember, this is not for eventual commercial publication. It's just for me, and for you, for our own interest and enjoyment...
KHUKURI STEEL

Compiled by Johan van Zyl with the kind assistence of forumites


Prologue - This article is not meant for those already in the know, but for young and not-so-young prospective collectors of khukuris, and all other khukuri enthusiasts who are naturally inclined to want to know more about the objects of their interest. Steel being what makes a khukuri able to do a proper job of work, KHUKURI STEEL is what this is all about.

Introduction to hammer-forging of khukuri blades

It is said by people familiar with forging as a method of shaping blade steel, that it is the only way, albeit old-fashioned, to achieve real strength and edge-holding ability in a blade. The blades of Nepalese khukuris are shaped in this way.

I find myself on my guard as I write these statements. I realise that if I am sympathetically inclined towards the objects of my interest, in this case khukuris, I might overlook shortcomings, and I might magnify good qualities in order to make my point. That is why I do not actively stop myself from criticising khukuris, or hearing khukuris being criticised. For that reason, I venture into this topic of khukuri steel to try to lay bare the relevant facts. I hope I might find that, at the end, khukuris do have some good points stacked in their favour!

There seems to be something special about forged blades. However, one seldom hears of blades, besides khukuris, being made the old-fashioned way. Today, most modern quality factory made and benchmade knives are ground out of bar stock or even investment cast. The famous makers don't seem to want to admit forging is a better method, if in fact the statement is true.

The blades of all well-made, traditional khukuris are forged. The cheaper Indian khukuris are also forged, as one can tell by looking along the length of the blade in the light. So why are some of the Indian-made copies of khukuris scoffed at most of the time? Certainly, it is because of poor acceptance by users due to poor performance in the field, not only in terms of overall quality of visible workmanship, but also because they bend or chip when used under harsh conditions.

..............Author still confused: Are there really no khukuris of good quality made in India? If so, Nepal is the only Eastern country from which the really good ones come.

In high quality khukuris there is superior quality control over the various stages of forging. One might say it is the eye of the expert kami (traditional Nepalese bladesmith), which ensures eventual success in the making of these knives.

What does hammer-forging do?

A properly hammer-forged and hammer-packed knife can hold a good edge and have a spring temper, claims Lewis & Combs (1992), even without heat treatment. When heat-treated, its edge-holding capacity is reportedly unsurpassed. These authors explain that hammer-forging aligns the crystalline structure of the steel to create a more resilient blade. They say a hammer-packed edge is not only tougher, but takes a higher degree of sharpness and holds it longer.

Well, I try hard to understand statements like these. You have to be able to look inside steel to comprehend clearly what is meant. There is a discipline (metallography), which does just that. This is the science dealing with the constitution and structure of metals and alloys as revealed by the unaided eye or by such tools as low-powered magnification, optical micros copy, electron microscopy and diffraction or x-ray techniques. But it is not easy to explain what steel looks like inside. It is said that steel can be considered a solid "solution" of iron and carbon. The iron atoms are arranged in a cubic configuration, also called the crystalline structure, within which the carbon atoms are tucked away in the interstices. The atoms are in a state of thermal agitation, even at room temperature, and are moving in small orbits or oscillating back and forth with more and more vigour depending on temperature. If this is not confusing enough, it also seems that steel has grain, much like wood. The "flow" of the grain in steel, and the alignment of the crystalline structure of the metal, seems to be one and the same thing.

I assume, in grinding a knife blade from bar stock, that when you start working, the grain is aligned along the length of the steel. Then, I conclude, when a knifemaker grinds a curved blade, he actually cuts against the grain in some parts of the blade. For instance, when he makes a khukuri, using this method, a certain part of the blade will be cut at an angle into the grain.

Now in forging a piece of steel, the grain flow becomes aligned along the forging lines (Lewis & Combs). For instance, if you forge a khukuri blade, the grain flow now follows the curve of the blade. In this way the steel is strengthened by forging. Compare the strength of a hoop-shaped armrest of a chair made from rattan, in which the grain follows the curve due to the bending process, with an armrest made from a solid piece of timber machined out. My judgment is that the armrest in the case of the rattan will be able to withstand more abuse than the one made from a machined piece of wood.

.............Author still confused: Assuming Lewis & Combs is correct (that the grain flow is alligned along the forging lines), then I must assume that the end product, after heat treatment, still has grain which follows the curve. If the heat treatment cancels out the grain flow, then it is useless to mention the grain flow in the first place.

But this comparison of steel with wood might be regarded as too simplistic. However, I have seen pictures of irregularly-shaped forged objects which have been etched to show the grain flow, which illustrates very clearly that the flow follows the curves.

The materials used in khukuri bladesmithing

Various advertisements claim that khukuris are forged from high-carbon steel.

According to the Khukuri-FAQ website (Wallace), kamis prefer to use Mercedes Benz or Saab truck leaf springs, if they can get them, to make khukuris. Now vehicle leaf springs are made of the so-called carbon steels and possibly also alloy steels, both of which are non-stainless.

Carbon is present in all steels, but in varying quantities. It is the most important hardening element in steel, and it also increases the strength of the steel. Knifemakers want knife-grade steel to have more than 0.5% carbon, which makes it "high-carbon" steel. The Encyclopaedia Britannica states that spring grade steels (the kind used in the manufacture of vehicle leaf springs) range from 0.85% to 10.5% carbon, used in a heat-treated condition.

Being the steels most often forged, carbon steels can be differentially tempered, and the kamis have allegedly been using this characteristic to good advantage, giving the steel a hard edge and a tough springy back. Tests done on a number of khukuri blades have shown that hardness is definitely not the same throughout.

Let me admit, I didn't know exactly and specifically which carbon and/or alloy steels are used in the manufacture of truck leaf springs. I read up on some material about steels compiled by collector and knifemaker Joe Talmadge, and consequently found that the springs might be made of one or more of the following:

5160 steel: This alloy steel, popular with forgers, has about 0.60% carbon. It is essentially a simple spring steel with chro mium added for hardenability. It has good edge holding qualities, but is known especially for its outstanding toughness. Quite often used for hard use knives, har- dened up near the 60s on the Rockwell "C" scale. I thought this might be a likely candidate used for the truck leaf springs.

1095 steel: This carbon steel (belonging to the AISI 10-series) is the most popular for knives. 1095 is, sort of, the "standard" carbon steel, and it performs well. It is reasonably tough and holds an edge very well. This is a simple steel having 0.95% carbon and 0.4% manganese as an alloying element. I felt that this might have been used in the manufacture of some truck leaf springs as well.

Joe Talmadge responded to my plea for further help, and suggested that 5160 steel is probably used in the making of truck leaf springs. Shortly afterwards I browsed through an information leaflet by the North Texas Blacksmiths Association, which states that vehicle leaf springs are made of 1085 and 5160 steels. At last I had some conclusive evidence. And the more I read up on the topic, the heavier the weight of evidence became, in favour of 5160 steel.

Regarding the preference the kamis have for Mercedes Benz and Saab truck springs, I asked myself on what grounds do they base that preference. Surely it is through experience in the forging of the various steels, in terms of the quality of the final product, that they are able to stand back eventually and declare they prefer this or that.

Concluding remarks

Hammer-forging allows the kami to change the shape of the steel. As an added bonus, the flow lines are arranged more or less parallel to the finished surface (as has already been pointed out), and the lines take an easy curve around corners. But as the spring steel is heated and hammered, it becomes more brittle and hard. That is why it is general procedure to bring the steel back to its original state by annealing (heating and then cooling slowly), if the desired shape is not yet reached.

Although it is said that some metals are harder to forge than others, I don't think there can be great variation in the "feel" of different vehicle leaf spring steels when hammering them on the anvil. But somewhere along the line quality checks must have been made on completed khukuris, and it must have been found that khukuris made from Mercedes springs conform best to the qualities desired in the best knives.

So what are these "desired qualities"? To put it in a nutshell, the blades must not bend when subjected to stress and the edges must be sufficiently hard. This is a big part of what separates real khukuris from wall-hangers.

But although the kamis seem to PREFER Mercedes and Saab, it does not imply they actually get it. Your next khukuri might be forged from a piece of Lada spring.

In the final account, it that so important? Whatever the case may be, I think we all accept that there's more to knife performance than merely the steel chosen to make the knife from. For one thing, the blade profile is important, in view of the task you need the knife for.

But perhaps the most important, after all, is the heat treatment. Some say the heat treatment is the soul of the blade. This is the topic of the follow- up article: HEAT TREATING KHUKURI STEEL.
 
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