chopping performance: foster, goo, andrews

[brightred]

i made a series of semi-scientific tests today. the question was - and still is: what makes a chopper a good chopper?

i measured half a dozen parameters of seven so called camp knives/cleavers/choppers, let excel do some math and went to the woods with four knives: a foster camp knife, a goo bush bastid, russ andrews' "bison", and a foster tactical kitchen cleaver.

although burt's camp knife feels much lighter and faster in the hand than tai's bastid, they weigh about the same. it seems to be a question of the "virtual" blade length (distance from tip to forefinger) to the tip-to-point-of-mass-distance ratio. to my surprise they performed about the same, although tai's bastid has a better one-stroke performance. on the thicker pieces of wood they behaved very similar (100 strokes). i am still confused about this. it can't be just the weight, right? maybe the blade or cutting edge geometry? the andrews knife was a bit behind, which is no surprise as it is significantly shorter and lighter than burt's camp knife and the bush bastid. burt's tactical kitchen cleaver is fun to use, but of course much too light to be an efficient wood chopper (but still much better than any clip or drop point hunter).

conclusions: i still do not really understand what makes a chopper a good chopper. however, tai's bush bastid is a fine replacement for an axe and it clears brush easily. don't go into a fight with it, it's just too slow. burt's camp knife is a fine chopper as well, but you can also use it in your outdoor kitchen. it's bloody fast and feels very light, so don't worry about grizzlies and outback-gangsters. but it's long and very pointed... the andrews knife is an excellent compromise, not too long, not too heavy, but still a decent chopper. it feels excellent in the hand, so no worries about blisters.

the thing i cut in pieces was very hard and dense beech, quite dry. i suppose it lay on the ground for about a year or two. btw. no chips, no rolled edges on all blades, still razor sharp after two hours of heavy chopping. all three makers are highly recommended!

best regards,
hans

the line-up

tai goo bush bastid

burt foster camp knife

russ andrews "the bison"

burt foster tactical kitchen cleaver

100 strokes. L to R: foster cleaver, andrews bison, foster camp knife, goo bastid

two hours later

 

[RogerP]

Very cool pics and report Hans - I quite enjoyed seeing these pieces put to use.

Check out the current issue of Blade for a pic of your Andrews Bison (pre scratches ).

Roger

 

[Marcel54]

Hans, nice report. If all knives perform on the same level I think looks should be the decisive factor. In that case for me the Foster camp knife wins with the Andrews a close second:thumbup:

Marcel

 

[Peregrin]

Great test report. It's nice to see these beauties get used. I like 'em all!

 

[braillediver]

Beauties.


Mitch

 

[xaman]

That's a great report, and the pictures of those beauties in use are awesome.

That Foster is gorgeous, glad to know it performed so well.

 

[Doug C]

Thanks Hans, really like performance threads.
Nice images as well.
You Rock !

Doug

 

[Keith Montgomery]

It was great to read a review of the cutting abilities of these three knives from someone willing to put them through the paces. Thanks.

 

[Lorien]

I always love seeing knives in use. Nice set you have there.

 

[RogerP]

I keep coming back to this thread for three reasons:

1) The first rate content,
2) The great pics of these terrific knives in use.
3) Because I want more.

I think the question posed "What makes a good chopper?" - and your approach to seeking an answer - is worthy of an article. I hope you'll give some thought to writing one.

Roger

 

[the possum]

Thanks a bunch for sharing! It's great to see such fine knives doing what they were born for!

As long as you're pondering about things like mass, balance, length, etc. and how they interplay to affect handling and impact behavior, I think it would be a great idea to add the pivot points to your spread sheet. Differences in mass distribution through the blade and handle can often have a very significant effect.

Here's a personal example of how performance was changed fairly radically by changing mass distribution: Khukri enhancement mods

 

[Russ Andrews]

Hans....I'm glad that one got put to work.....Thanks...

Q)...Are choppers and camp knives necessarily one and the same critter...?

 

[xaman]

Hans....I'm glad that one got put to work.....Thanks...

Q)...Are choppers and camp knives necessarily one and the same critter...?

Not IMO. I think a camp knife should be able to chop (at least somewhat), but a dedicated chopper doesn't necessarily need to be proficient in other camp chores. A dedicated chopper might be cumbersome to carry and use in odinary camp use, while a "camp knife" should be somewhat comfortable to carry. Just my default opinions without giving it too much thought.

Nice knife Russ, beautiful :thumbup:

 

[brightred]

thanks a lot for your comments! i am glad that you enjoyed my little test!

Check out the current issue of Blade for a pic of your Andrews Bison (pre scratches ).

i subscribed to the magazine! i should get the current issue. sooner or later. btw, there are only minor scratches on russ' blade. chopping through wood doesn't do much harm to the blade finish, it's mainly the bark with all the aggregated dust particles that scratches the blade. however, the first stroke really hurts... i almost feel pity for russ, he spent hours sanding the blade to 1200 or even more, and then, one stroke... sorry, russ!

I think the question posed "What makes a good chopper?" - and your approach to seeking an answer - is worthy of an article. I hope you'll give some thought to writing one.

i only scratched the surface. there's some way to go yet, but my curiosity is stimulated. i'll try to dig deeper - when i have time...

Hans....I'm glad that one got put to work.....Thanks...

the knife deserves it! it's built to be used. it performs incredibly well, feels very comfortable in the hand, and is sooo nice! until now i always had a hunter and a big blade with me when i went camping, next time it will probably your knife only.

Q)...Are choppers and camp knives necessarily one and the same critter...?

i second xaman's opinion: no. tai goo's bush bastid is a pure chopper, imo, and a good one! but certainly a bad choice for more delicate chores in and around the camp, no gutting and cleaning deer, no carrot chopping at the campfire, etc.

a camp knife should be a lot more: kitchen knife, hunting knife, chopper... a camp knife can't be a champion in all categories, of course, but you don't want to have an kitchen knife, a hunter, an axe with you when spend some days outdoors.

Thanks a bunch for sharing! It's great to see such fine knives doing what they were born for!

As long as you're pondering about things like mass, balance, length, etc. and how they interplay to affect handling and impact behavior, I think it would be a great idea to add the pivot points to your spread sheet. Differences in mass distribution through the blade and handle can often have a very significant effect.

Here's a personal example of how performance was changed fairly radically by changing mass distribution: Khukri enhancement mods

thanks a lot for the link, possum! that's the kind of information i was looking for. will take some time until i understand everything written there (all these english terms i don'd know yet...). the "virtual" blade lenght i mentioned might be the distance from the tip to a pivot point (where your forefinger touches the handle). besides other things i calculated the weigh of the blade (tip to centre of mass) and the weigh of the handle, and was surprised how heavy the handle is (ratio blade to handle about .47 (foster camp knife) to .76 (goo bush bastid)). this is not very accurate as the mass distribution is not even in reality. i am thinking about having a test knife made that allows to attach pieces of steel to different places on the blade and the handle. might be interesting...

 

[HTMD]

Tai - testing the edge on a smaller bush series blade:

My larger "Bush Buddy":

Tested against and bested an excellent hand ax:

Is this not a chopper too? Blade is from Tai Goo's Bush Kitchen Rig:

Tai's choppers aren't the only great ones. Kevin Cashen is equally known for his:

That blade became mine and it's a powerful chopper. The sweet spot is a bit narrower than that of the Bush Buddy. It's also arresting to look at:

This is Jim Crowell's chopper with which he won the first ever BLADE sponsored World Champion Cutter competition. That's the custom silver belt buckle he got for winning and the other knife is one of Browning's special limited series production knives, designed by Crowell:

Just got back from BLADE with yet another bigger & better chopper - this one by Adam DesRosiers. Will post a pic later.

 

[the possum]

will take some time until i understand everything written there (all these english terms i don'd know yet...). the "virtual" blade length i mentioned might be the distance from the tip to a pivot point (where your forefinger touches the handle).

Actually, it seems many sword guys think the "virtual" blade length coincides rather nicely with the pivot point associated the crossguard or first finger. But the corresponding pivot point out on the blade may or may not be located at the tip, depending on the mass distribution.

besides other things i calculated the weigh of the blade (tip to centre of mass) and the weigh of the handle, and was surprised how heavy the handle is (ratio blade to handle about .47 (foster camp knife) to .76 (goo bush bastid)). this is not very accurate as the mass distribution is not even in reality.

If you're curious about comparing the relative mass in the blade compared to the larger amount of mass in the handle, check out this thread:
sword balance ideas.
Vincent is finding some really neat correlations between the blade mass vs. the "point mass".

 

[stabber]

Nice Lineup/review/pics!!

That BF is Awesome!!:thumbup:

 

[Jose Reyes]

[/B]

Not IMO. I think a camp knife should be able to chop (at least somewhat), but a dedicated chopper doesn't necessarily need to be proficient in other camp chores. A dedicated chopper might be cumbersome to carry and use in odinary camp use, while a "camp knife" should be somewhat comfortable to carry. Just my default opinions without giving it too much thought.

Nice knife Russ, beautiful :thumbup:

My thoughts too. A camp should be somewhere between a hatchet and a trail knife. This is coming from a city slicker so take it for what it's worth...

Thanks for the thread, Hans, always nice to see customs being put through their paces. :thumbup: I find your question about cleaning game interesting too. Do you outdoorsmen use your camp knives for that chore or do you carry a small hunter as well? There's probably a perfect median but I tend to think of a camp knife paired with either a hatchet or hunter depending on the design.

 

[stefanj]

I like this thread!

 

[brightred]

possum,
extremely interesting read, but not easily digestible, thanks a lot! that will keep me busy for a while.

buddy,
great pictures, outstanding cashen knife! thanks for sharing!

jose,
im am just a wannabe outdoorsman, except for the two weeks camping per year... but well, the biggest adventures take place in the head, not in reality.

i have never shot an animal, never had to clean one. but i was told by the german hunter and knifemaker richard hehn, that he prefers a drop point blade, rather short to be able to protect the tip with the forfinger when going through the skin with the edge up, small rounded guard, wear resistant stainless steel. this is not only pretty far from a camp knife, but also looks quite different from all the hunting knives a lot of us like so much (without ever using them for cleaning an animal).

bottom line, imo, is: if you know that you'll have to clean an animal, you have a hunting knife with you. if you spend some time outdoors camping, cooking, whittling, clearing brush, maybe even building a shelter, then a camp knife might be great, especially if you don't want to carry four different, maybe heavy knives and axes. if you inted to go camping and hunting, you probably have a hunting knife and and a camp knife in your backpack. or a nessmuk knife and axe. that reminds me of raymond richard, need to get in touch with him...

btw. this is a hunting knife made by knifemaker and hunter richard hehn, co-inventor of stainless damascus, made from s60v, short drop point blade, full integral.

best regards,
hans