Choseras or Super Stones? 'Bout to spend me some money lol..

Gotsouthern

Gotsouthern

Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Messages
231
I've got a handful of DMT 8's on the way (XX, C, F), and about to pull the trigger on two or three waterstones. I've got it narrowed down to either the Chosera's or the Super Stones, and while I'm sure my collection will expand with time, for this first buying round I want to stay consistent with brand...though don't ask why lol, and if there is a convincing reason to mix and match, I'm open minded. Or even to branch out outside those two given stones, though those seem to be consistent favorites. Got the DMT's up to Fine, figure I need something like a 1k, 4k, 8k or thereabout in the waterstones. Any suggestions are appreciated. Looking for this to be as all-around as possible at this point, though I am sure I will specialize as time goes on. Will be sharpening a wide gamut of steels and styles from cheaper Western kitchen knives, some Japanese kitchen knives, plenty of S30V/154CM/VG10 folders through a few custom S90V skinners and boners. Though no razors so that's not a consideration at this point. Thanks a bunch, this board is great. Nothing like feeding the obsession!!!

Tom
 
Good luck with CPMsteels and w
terstones, they work but can be frustratingly slow. I would suggest the complete set o DMT for the win.
 
i got a few of the choceras and they r the bomb!....they r waaaay nicer than most other waterstones i've tried..... if u wanna save some money on a 10k stone....i don't think i can post links but i could save u some money on it.....good luck deciding....ryan
 
I compared the Chosera 10k to the SuperStone 12k and got the same results. The SS 12k is cheaper, so I would go for that. The SS 10k is a completely different stone, it's very soft.

I second the recommendation on the DMTs, though they don't go up as high in grit.
 
The Super Stones do not need to be soaked, the Choseras do. The SS stones are generally softer, and go up to 12K, while the Choseras stop at 10, though that is supposed to be an exceptional stone. The Chosera 10K is about $230 for a 30mm thick stone, the 12K is about half that for a 20mm stone, or you can get 10mm stones for less. You can also get a Chosera cut down to 14mm for $120.

I got a 20mm 10K SS for $70 off the bay, will see how it does. I kinda like soft stones, makes sure I use a soft touch.
 
Alright two questions:

From some of the suggestions you guys are pointing me toward a higher grit stone than I had anticipated. Is it kosher to jump from say the DMT Fine to a 10k or 12k stone?

That being said, is it worth getting the DMT8EE or some "inbetween" stones in the 1k to 8k range?
 
for the naniwas, I would do maybe 2K/5K/10 or 12K

for DMT, you could add E & EE, then follow with the 10/12, but I've read the EE takes a lot of breaking in.
 
For some reason I just like the idea of the water stones for the higher grits, even if it does take a little longer on the CPM steels. That 2/5/10 suggestion sounds good, more in line with what i had in my head. Man those 10/12's are pricey lol!!
 
Gotsouthern said:
For some reason I just like the idea of the water stones for the higher grits, even if it does take a little longer on the CPM steels. That 2/5/10 suggestion sounds good, more in line with what i had in my head. Man those 10/12's are pricey lol!!
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I use my Naniwa 12K for touchups. Just a few light strokes each side and the edge is hair-whittling sharp again. They are not meant to remove metal quickly, so they would be quite slow compared to a coarser grit DMT. I can confirm that it does work on S30V, and SGPS:

buckvp.jpg


tk4minea.jpg
 
Gotsouthern said:
For some reason I just like the idea of the water stones for the higher grits, even if it does take a little longer on the CPM steels. That 2/5/10 suggestion sounds good, more in line with what i had in my head. Man those 10/12's are pricey lol!!
Click to expand...

A little slow is a understatement, I sharpened my S30V mini rukus on a 8000 grit ice bear waterstone and to complete the polish it took about 45 minutes, with the EEF-DMT it takes about 5. I know this will be hard to believe but the edge is also much sharper and if stropped equally the edge finished by the diamond stone still beats it many times over. Don't get me wrong I really like waterstones and they do work well but when it comes to these high end stainless steels especially S90V theirs a big difference when you use diamonds.

Yeah, it takes a while to break-in but the rest of the DMT stones take just as long and no one complains about those. Remember patients is the key.:)
 
I'm still trying to decide on the EE. It's mesh, not grit, so I don't know if I should expect 4K grit or 8K grit performance. The diamonds are 3 micron, like 4K grit, but they're embedded. The head honcho of DMT said that the 600 mesh/25 micron diamonds are embedded to leave 8 or 9 microns exposed. If the EE is like that, then about 1 micron would be exposed there as well, which is about the particle size for 8K grit, and may be why an improved finish above 4K.

If I get a deal on one, I'll pick it up. Although, I just bought what may be an Arkansas mudstone, a couple crystolon stones, a couple ultra sharp IIs, the naniwa, an aoto, and a nakayama. And I still want to get a BBW and a coticule, and maybe a black/translucent Arkansas just for giggles and my carbon slippies (I know it won't handle any of the super alloyed steels).

BTW, have you been able to compare the finish off the EE to any diamond lapping film?

Oh yeah, good luck with this sharpening thing, Gotsouthern :D
 
hardheart said:
I'm still trying to decide on the EE. It's mesh, not grit, so I don't know if I should expect 4K grit or 8K grit performance. The diamonds are 3 micron, like 4K grit, but they're embedded. The head honcho of DMT said that the 600 mesh/25 micron diamonds are embedded to leave 8 or 9 microns exposed. If the EE is like that, then about 1 micron would be exposed there as well, which is about the particle size for 8K grit, and may be why an improved finish above 4K.

If I get a deal on one, I'll pick it up. Although, I just bought what may be an Arkansas mudstone, a couple crystolon stones, a couple ultra sharp IIs, the naniwa, an aoto, and a nakayama. And I still want to get a BBW and a coticule, and maybe a black/translucent Arkansas just for giggles and my carbon slippies (I know it won't handle any of the super alloyed steels).

BTW, have you been able to compare the finish off the EE to any diamond lapping film?

Oh yeah, good luck with this sharpening thing, Gotsouthern :D
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The surface finish is misleading to how sharp, smooth, and refined the edge is off the DMT stone. It easily exceeds the sharpness of a 8000 grit waterstone but because its diamonds doing the cutting the scratches look deep. I know this is not the case though because when looked at under bright light the reflection is that of a rainbow. Its hard to put it in perspective but the finish is like a 3000-4000 grit waterstone.

Polished up with a little 1 micron diamond compound and personally I like the look.
Picture377.jpg


ZDP does not show it true potential but its the only pic I got of a un-stropped blade.
Picture647.jpg
 
knifeknut1013,

Comparing a King/IceBear to a Chosera is like comparing a Home Shopping Network framelock to a Sebenza. Sadly, that includes relative price differences.

Gotsouthern,

Once you get into the polishing stages, either series of Naniwa will do. To bridge the gap between your DMT Fine and a Naniwa polishing stone, the Suehiro Rika 5,000 from Hida Tool works nicely and lets you save some money, too. That would also set you up nicely to finish with 10K Superstone (same abrasives as the 10K Chosera, just less concentrated).
 
Thanks for all the advice guys.

Thom, I may just try that stone you mentioned. Price is certainly right.

I've heard several people mention breaking in the diamond stones, is there a way to speed up the process?
 
Gotsouthern said:
I've heard several people mention breaking in the diamond stones, is there a way to speed up the process?
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Two ways - only one is recommended:

1. Flattening waterstones! The unbonded diamonds will loosen and start to wash off when the waterstone schmutz is washed off.

2. Rubbing two diamond stones together as lightly as possible so each knocks the unbonded diamonds off the other stone.

The first method is faster and more uniform than just sharpening knives on 'em. The second method is even faster than the first, but easier to overdo and ruin your stones.
 
I'm of a different opinion than Thom. For me, grits is grits. There is some pleasure in using the high end stones but not a lot of difference in performance. I've been using the Shapton stones for years and they are certainly a lot nicer than King or other low end stones, but I can make the knives just as sharp just as quickly with the cheaper stones. The better stones have other performance features that are nice. As an example, my Shapton stones don't require soaking and they wear longer than cheaper stones. Those are nice features but they don't really relate to making an edge. Grits is grits and grits make the edge. It is up to you to decide what features you want and how they fit your budget.

As for grits, we normally want between 4X and 6X changes in grit size when going from stone to stone. So, if your medium sharpening stone is 1000 grit, the the finishing stone should be in the area of 4000 to 6000. With a 2000 grit medium stone, you might go to 8000 to 12000 grit for finishing. These are guidelines, not hard and fast rules. Having too many stones just makes the process more time consuming. Three is plenty - grinding, sharpening and finishing.

Personally, I use 200, 2000 and 8000 as my three stones. The most common combination in Japan - where most waterstones are made and used - is 200, 1000 and 6000. No right and wrong. Just a few guidelines.
 
Thom and Knife Outlet...thank you both, very pointed, informative posts there. KO, I like that rule of thumb progression, puts out some hard numbers to make sense of what seems like a very personal, subjective topic.

Thom, on the break in thing with the DMT's...say I wanted to get a cheap stone, coarse stone, maybe a Norton 200 grit or something of the like JUST to break in the DMT's, would it hurt it to use that on the F, EF, EEF DMT's? Just that I mostly hear of guys using the XX or X DMT for stone flattening, and that makes great sense as for removal of stone material to get where your going, but in my instance here wanting to break in a finer grade DMT would it work in reverse basically. Thanks!!
 
For breaking in the finer DMT's I found a ceramic knife to work best.
 
Gotsouthern said:
would it hurt it to use that on the F, EF, EEF DMT's?
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Might not, but some things are weird. Something in my Norton 8,000 is a death-sentence to my DMT EF stone and I know of another guy who claims his XXC was killed by a 220 grit Glasstone. Wouldn't buy a waterstone; not even a $20-30 one; just to break in diamond benchstones. You can get a King 800/6,000 in that price range and though it'll be slow for Knifenut1013 and me and fast for KnifeOutlet, you can break in all your diamond stones and have a fun waterstone to use.
 
I will second the suggestion of not using waterstones to break-in you finer DMT's, the creamic knife works good or rubbing two DMT's together is one of the ways suggested by DMT. If you rub two stones together do it under running water and use almost no pressure, short periods of time too about 5-10 seconds.
 
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