Chrome tanned inlay question.

elof_alv

elof_alv

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Mar 13, 2009
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Hi all.

I guess someone here will be able to help me out.

I have been asked to make a sheath with a hair on inlay. I wasn't able to find this particular hide tanned in Australia, so I have sourced the hide and got a tanning kit for hair on DIY tanning.

Unfortunately it is a chrome tanning kit (again supply of a lot of things is quite limited in Australia) and I just want to find out if there is a way to make sure that it will work for a knife sheath without damaging the knife.

Or, should I just get some brains from a butcher and try that direction?

Thanks for all the info.
 
Unless you have a thinner Veg-tanned hide that you can line the sheath with, I would brain tan it. MAKE SURE you don't get the slurry on the hair or it will slip.
 
There will be a layer of veg tanned leather (4-5 oz) between the blade and the hairy hide
 
Contact Mr. Paul Long about this misperception. He will give you the facts and help you out. I know he did with me.
 
The following information is based on my own personal experience, and is in no way intended to be argumentative or counter any other opinion.

First, all my sheaths are fully lined so any inlay cannot possibly touch the knife.

About half of my linings are deer skin, most of which is chrome tanned. (Pouch style sheaths) Naturally the entire interior of those deer skin lined sheaths come in contact with the knife. In over twelve years of doing my sheaths this way, I have had not even one complaint or comment regarding any damage to the knife as a result of the chrome tanned liners. Therefore I conlcude that the problem is not as severe as some think…..BUT, this assumes that the knife is not stored in the sheath either lined with chrome tan or any other lining material, or not lined at all for an extended period of time. (Extended period of time would be several months or longer without removing the knife). If it is in a high humidity environment or where moisture can be attracted it's much worse. Storage in the sheath for extended periods can and probably will cause a degree of damage to any high carbon blade regardless of the composition or tannage of the interior.

Take this information with a grain of salt. It (chrome tanned deer skin) has worked well for me based on the caveat of no prolonged storage in the sheath. The same is true for veg. tan linings.

Paul
 
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Gonna add my 2 cents worth. I have made hundreds of holster lined in chrome tan. Everyone of my Rangeflap hoslters is lined in it. I have persoally kept several handguns in their holsters at all times, in the safe right now, that way. We all know they shouldn't be stored that way and I advise people not too. However, I have and do. I have not seen any problems. I think the problem really comes from the possiblilty of moisture getting into the leather nd then kept against the steel. All leathers can attract mositure.
 
Thanks guys!

I appreciate your time taken to respond to my question.

I'll post some pics once everything is done.
 
I'm really surprised by the last two comments. In all of my poking around I haven't seen opinions like Dave and Pauls. These are two of the most experienced and trustworthy guys I know in the field of leather work.

The common claim is that the chromium salts in the more commonly tanned leather can interact with steel, correct? If that is so, why are you guys not getting a reaction? Is there any evidence that chrome tanned leather is indeed damaging to steel that any of you are aware of? If so, is there a difference between carbon and stainless?

I'm inclined to ht a couple of steel stamps (I can only do 1084) and wrap them in different leathers. Perhaps I can add a touch of moisture.

Anyone have any ideas on a good method to see if we can tell a difference?

I'd personally love to hear more about these home tanning kits as well as experiences with brain tanning. My understanding is that brain tanning is very labor intensive, but that's never stopped me from trying something new.
 
Anthony, my post was very clear that what I said was based on MY OWN EXPERIENCE, and that I was NOT being argumentative.

Yes, there is a host of written and oral opinions to the contrary, and I am neither suggesting or not suggesting you try my way. I'm merely stating that I use chrome tanned and I have not had any problem brought to my attention in twelve years of sheath making.

Dave and I both cautioned about moisture within the sheath or holster which "could" facilitate the rusting or damage to ANY steel, with any leather,
(stainless less likely and would take a little longer). Some carbon steels can rust very quickly in your pocket on a hot humid day accelerated by body heath and sweat.

I do not suggest anyone store their knives etc. within any leather product for extended periods of time. Like Dave, I do it from time to time but my safe is climate controlled and de-humidified which greatly reduces the chance of any damage to about zero, in my case and I assume in Dave's case as well. Also the knives and guns are cleaned and OILED before storage in the sheaths/holsters in the safe.

If I set out to run a "test" in chrome tan or any other leather and induce moisture I can almost guarantee if I leave it long enough I will get rust and damage.

Finally for what it's worth, if you put away a gun or hunting knife after use without cleaning and oiling and leave it long enough wrapped in nothing, you will likely get rust and damage.

I would venture a guess that the folks who have had a problem with chrome tan, or any other leather may have neglected the clean it after you use it rule, and perhaps left it in the trunk of their car or similar place for an extended period with temperature swings of freezing to 100+ degrees. (condensation moisture big time)

Common sense may not be too common.

Paul
 
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I saw nothing in what you wrote as argumentative, on the contrary, it was clearly your experience, but that's what makes it so interesting. I trust your experience far above my own, or from what I read from many folks.

Testing the leather, as a concept, is just an invitation to help me bring evidence to the table rather than conjecture. What I mean is that I have always been told that chrome tanned is death to steel (although the topic of carbon versus chromium containing alloys are not typically discussed), but you and Dave have pointed out fact based (not anecdotal) evidence to the contrary. To me that's worth investigating. I don't have the ability to prove, or disprove either way, but some simple tests might show something beyond what we already assume.

The bottom line, as far as I'm concerned, is that I will continue to use veg tanned leather for all parts of construction barring inlay/overlays. The reason is because it's what I know works for ME. We all do this to some degree because it would be silly to do otherwise. But even so, wouldn't it be interesting to see if we could get some evidence together that might prove something to be based in fact rather than perpetuating a myth?

It's also totally possible that I'm alone in wondering about things like this. After all, there's no monetary, nor functional reason to change the status quo. Just plain curiosity and search for edification I guess.
 
Anthony, you're thinking along the same lines as I did when I posted this thread.

I wanted to hear from the few folks who I know will share their experience and not somebody else's opinion.

If Paul and Dave say it works alright, that's a lot more of an assurance to me than some schmuck on youtube saying to the contrary.

Here is the tanning kit I got locally, flashing knife it comes with is not in the pic.
 
I suspect that most of the information about chrome tanned leather being a no no in sheath and holster making is rather old. Most of it from the 50's and 60's. There is a lot of info from Stohlman about just this, but its all very old material.

I do wonder if the new methods, or simply the better more thorough process has mostly eliminated the chance of the chromium salts remaining in the leather. Suede, at least back then, was notorious for coloring the wearer when it got wet. Suede jackets, shoes, even pants ( :p ) were dry clean only. I remember well a friend of mine with green feet after slogging through water.

Cheap suede, or other chrome tanned material might still be a bit risky when wet. Dont go cheap, same rule applies to veggie tanned leather as well. I soaked a sample sent to me a while back in water. The water turned a nice golden brown. Tanning solution left in it.
 
Dwayne,
Thanks for your input.
I also thought that some of the bad rep for chrome tanned leather came mostly from the less than optimal tanning process. According to instructions in the kit, after all the soaking/cleaning at the end of the process (even specifically asking for rain water :eek:, good thing that after the biblical weather we had in the last week and a half I have about 2 buckets) nothing soluble in water would have stayed in the leather.

Again, thanks for all the replies gents, this place is a treasure trove of knowledge!
 
Best of luck with your project! Please do let us know how it comes out!
 
elof_alv said:
Anthony, you're thinking along the same lines as I did when I posted this thread.

I wanted to hear from the few folks who I know will share their experience and not somebody else's opinion.

If Paul and Dave say it works alright, that's a lot more of an assurance to me than some schmuck on youtube saying to the contrary.

Here is the tanning kit I got locally, flashing knife it comes with is not in the pic.
Click to expand...

That's awesome man. Please let me know how the kit works out!

leatherman said:
I suspect that most of the information about chrome tanned leather being a no no in sheath and holster making is rather old. Most of it from the 50's and 60's. There is a lot of info from Stohlman about just this, but its all very old material.

I do wonder if the new methods, or simply the better more thorough process has mostly eliminated the chance of the chromium salts remaining in the leather. Suede, at least back then, was notorious for coloring the wearer when it got wet. Suede jackets, shoes, even pants ( [emoji14] ) were dry clean only. I remember well a friend of mine with green feet after slogging through water.

Cheap suede, or other chrome tanned material might still be a bit risky when wet. Dont go cheap, same rule applies to veggie tanned leather as well. I soaked a sample sent to me a while back in water. The water turned a nice golden brown. Tanning solution left in it.
Click to expand...

Exactly what I was thinking too. I was reading about the various qualities of chrome tanned a couple of weeks ago. According to the article one of the main benefits is that high quality modern chrome tanned is basically water damage resistant. They claimed that their leather could be machine washed.

I have an expensive white leather motorcycle jacket with red leather panels. It gets dingy pretty quickly riding through all the gnats and whatnot and I'd read that it could be machine washed. I've done just that a few times and have noticed no damage outside of a little stiffening, but conditioner helps that.

090712201931.jpg


Doesn't say anything about metal interaction, but it says to me that chrome tanned is a different product than what used to be available.

Interesting stuff for sure.
 
You know, since I have not had any trouble with the chrome tanned deer skins etc., I haven't given the subject much thought, but I believe Dwayne probably nailed it with his post. Much of the negative information comes from very old sources, and while the tanning chemicals are probably much the same as they have always been modern tanning methods have improved dramatically with time and I bet more rinses and more thorough rinses remove almost all of the tanning salts now as opposed to years ago.

That would be a logical explanation as to why Dave and I have had good luck with it.

Paul
 
sheathmaker said:
You know, since I have not had any trouble with the chrome tanned deer skins etc., I haven't given the subject much thought, but I believe Dwayne probably nailed it with his post. Much of the negative information comes from very old sources, and while the tanning chemicals are probably much the same as they have always been modern tanning methods have improved dramatically with time and I bet more rinses and more thorough rinses remove almost all of the tanning salts now as opposed to years ago.

That would be a logical explanation as to why Dave and I have had good luck with it.

Paul
Click to expand...

I might add to this as a 'possibility' - perhaps it's "better steels" used in the articles being holstered/sheathed? Think about it....when those articles were written, knives were very high carbon steels....to include many firearms. How many of those knives were patina'd and firearms were "blued steel?" Bluing agents begin the rusting process and stop it at a certain point during that process. How do bluing agents + tanning agents behave together? I can't answer this but it's a plausible theory.....
 
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