Civilian or police for self defense?

Joined
Jun 9, 1999
Messages
4,729
I am looking for a knife to use for self defense while I'm running. I want something that is fairly big, but also lightweight. It can't be heavy or it'll pull my shorts right off. I know that the civilian was designed with defense in mind, but it's a little pricey for me. However, I don't want to get something inferior and then actually need it. Any thoughts?

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Just because I talk to myself doesn't mean I'm crazy. What's wrong with getting a second opinion?
 
The Civilian has substantial advantages over the Police and virtually every other knife for self-defense. Not only is as fast to deploy as any tip-down, blade-hole knife (as fast as a folder can be, IMO), but the wicked hooked point can be relied on to penetrate clothing and inflict damage on virtually any area. Instead of a potentially glancing slash, the hook shape draws more and more of the blade into the target. This seems far better than a thrusting attack, which must be carefully targeted and aimed at the body for substantial effect. The effect of an even moderate limb strike from the Civilian should give any assailant pause, and give you the opportunity to escape.

That's my hope, anyhow. I'd rather rely on a firearm, but as knives go it is IMO far better than any "folding fighter" or other design. Compared to the Police, especially, it is far better suited to defense. The Police has a straight edge with little belly for slashing, and its needle-like point is good for utility but poor for stabbing because the slippery, guardless handle would not stop your hand from slipping onto the blade if you met substantial resistance.

Think of it this way: the Civilian is the only production folder specifically designed for defense; many are designed for "knife fighting" and merely claim to be for defense. Furthermore, it's a Spyderco. Yeah, that means it's pricey, but you know that you get what you pay for with them. Would you trust your defense to something less?

Of course, you may soon be able to... Aside from the (IMO) slower tip-up deployment, the Matriarch will soon offer Civilian performance at a more affordable price. Only available here. Isn't Blade Forums cool?
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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
 
Corduroy,
Thanks for the advice. Your examples on the slashing and deployment of this knife were eye-opening. About the matriarch, where on bladeforums can I find it? I'll need it before the beginning of July because I'm going on vacation in Virginia City and intend to run very early in the morning to beat the heat. I'm not necesarily expecting trouble, but I would like to be prepared. At 130 lbs., I look like an easy target but don't want to be, hence my interest in this knife. Thanks again.

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Just because I talk to myself doesn't mean I'm crazy. What's wrong with getting a second opinion?

[This message has been edited by Roadrunner (edited 13 June 1999).]
 
If you get a Civillian you will not be dissappointed in any way. Best pure defensive hit and run knife made.
 
the Civilian is an excellent " Jogging" knife.the 98 merlin would be a good choice also.Sure,you cannot thrust with this style blade, but you don't have to.the shape is ideal for "contour" cuts and trapping.Watch the civilian training tape by James Keating(Comtech) and become a believer.If you are assaulted while running,you may already be tired or fatigued at the start of the fight!Claw style blades make a great equalizer.
 
My civilian is my preferred knife for defense, when in jeans or clothing where it can be securely carried. When I jog, I don't carry my civilian because it's not secure enough (my running clothes are as light as possible) and I don't want to chance losing it while on the road. My primary carry while jogging is a neck knife with a cheaper clip-on folder as secondary.

If you can carry the civilian securely while jogging, it is a very good choice. You didn't mention a neck knife, but if you don't have one, you might want to consider this type of knife for jogging. They come with either paracord or breakaway chain normally and are very easy to carry and deploy while jogging.

Hope you find a solution you are comfortable with.
smile.gif
 
Roadrunner, have you checked out an Endura? It`s size and light weight will likely fill your needs.

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never a dull moment
 
Thanks for the advice everyone! I appreciate your help. Carver, What neck knife do you reccomend? I have seen CS's in their catalog, but have never handled one. I'm also not real sure what my parents will think of it. (They're non-knifeknuts.) I'm also not real sure on Virginia's carry laws. Anyone live there or visit a lot and know the law? I just checked their website and the only knife that is illegal to carry whose I was unsure of is a "ballistic knife". I have never heard of it and they didn't offer a definition.

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Just because I talk to myself doesn't mean I'm crazy. What's wrong with getting a second opinion?

[This message has been edited by Roadrunner (edited 13 June 1999).]
 
as for a neck knife I suggest a Columbia River Knife And Tool Stiff Kiss, replace the cord with ball chain and wrap the cord around the handel for a better grip, the knife is only 30 dollars.
 
Someone mentioned above about a good alternative to the Civilian might be the '98 Merlin.
How would the '98 Merlin rate as a smaller, lightweight version of the Civilian as a possible defensive folder?
Jim
 
There are some really nice choices in neck knives for very reasonable prices. If you use the search button for "neck knife" you should see a lot of posts.

I personally have Newt Livesay's G-45 and the Stiff KISS. Both are low cost and can do the job. There are several other good choices you will see if you do a search.
 
As far as neck knives I own a stiff kiss and a Newt Livesay WOO. I have wrapped both knives handles with paracord to improve gripability. Of the two I prefer the WOO,because the handle feels better to me though YMMV. They can both be had for under $30.

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never a dull moment
 
Get the Merlin!!!!!!
It is not as pricey, and being lighter in weight, it is ideally suited to jogging.
Just clip it inside the elastic waistband of your running shorts or track suit, and you can forget it's there until you need it (hope you never do need it, though...)

I agree that the hooked blade is much better for self defense, especially for us "amateur knifeslingers". I have a nice BM Stryker, but I wouldn't really know what to do with it in a grave situation. II think I could use my small Cricket better for a "slash-and-run" manoeuvre.
 
Thanks again for posting everyone! I've noticed many of you mention the Merlin. At the risk of sounding uncultured, inexperienced, ignorant and just plain dumb, I have to say I've never heard of this knife and don't know who makes it. Does anyone have a link that I could go to to look at it?
I haven't been posting here very long, and most of my experience is with factory knives, but I have been a knife knut since age 7 or so. Please excuse my inexperience, but I am willing to listen and learn. Thanks again for all of your help with this subject.

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Just because I talk to myself doesn't mean I'm crazy. What's wrong with getting a second opinion?
 
Roadrunner,

For Matriarch info, check here: http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum20/HTML/000356.html

They're not available quite yet, so they may not suit your immediate need. Soon, we hope, soon...

A ballistic knife is a strange and dangerous contraption where a coil-spring in the handle actually fires the blade off like a projectile. Not just illegal (here in MA too), they're also a really bad idea
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The Merlin is the liteweight counterpart to the Harpy. It's a hawksbill just under 3", a plain curve and not the S-curve of the Civilian. My girlfriend just picked up a G-10 Harpy that suits her far better than a Civilian would. My impression is that it is far less intimidating and has a much "blunter" point that the Civilian, but I would still rate it well above "a poor substitute" though it's hardly the same knife in miniature. One minor advantage (IMO) of the Harpy over the Merlin is that it is tip-down for fastest deployment (though I have seen tip-up G-10 Harpies but my sweetie's is tip-down - how odd).

Incidentally, I have both G-10 and Aluminum Civilians now, so I can compare. The aluminum is definitely classier, with fit-and-finish that is overall a bit nicer, at least on mine. The weight may be slightly less on the G-10, but they're so close it's hard to tell. The kraton-filled clip on the aluminum is very neat to grip and innovative, but slows down the draw considerably - I switched mine for a metal clip like the one the G-10 model has. I may be mistaken, but the newer G-10 model seems to have a slightly reduced point; my aluminum Civie had suffered minor damage and had its point reground, yet it still has a bit more of a hook than the G-10 model. In steel, I prefer the old G-2/Gin-1 of the aluminum model, because it's very springy and tough. I think ATS-55 will be slightly more brittle and its edge-holding advantages mean little on a knife that will remain razor-sharp and only be used for a few strikes in a time of need (get two - one for training!).

That may have sounded like an ambiguous comparison, but I left out part. While I adore the aluminum Civilian for its unique and complex construction, from a handling standpoint the G-10 is the clear winner. While the kraton gives the Civie a huge advantage over other metal-handled Spydies, it is no match for the warm, grippy, and pleasantly rough feel of the G-10. The knife grabs your hand and feels almost cloth-like with the roughest G-10 surface I've ever seen, yet moves easily in the hand and doesn't chafe. I think G-10 is ugly and boring, but I have to give it the prize for functionality. It makes a great defensive knife even better.

That's my little review of the two Civies. Thanks for reading
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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
 
Neck knife? Wickeds NRG is a bit more substantial and is paracord wrapped for a more secure grip and draw. About $30 for a good, cheap, utilitarian fix blade.

Large and lightweight? A much overlooked folder would be the Wayne Goddard lightweight. Flat, reversible clip and integral finger guard for positive thrusting.

L8r,
Nakano



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"To earn a million is easy, a real friend is not."
 
Roadrunner:

If I were in your situation I'd carry either the Endura or the Wayne Goddard Lightweight, both by Spyderco. If you have small hands, or want something even lighter, there is always the Delica or the Native (also Spydercos).

I haven't seen the Keating Civilian video, and I'm still not a believer.

David Rock
 
Roadrunner, I second David's suggestion of the Delica or Endura. In fact, why not get both. That way, you will have 2 knives of similar ergonomics; but in 2 sizes. You can carry whichever one is appropriate on a daily basis and not worry that you will be fumbling when you pull whichever one you happen to be carrying, out of your pocket.

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Bill
"Walk softly and carry a big folder... and a small folder... and a SAK... and a multi-tool..."
 
Roadrunner, another option would be to get one of Mike Sastre's neck sheaths for the Merlin (or Civilian for that matter). That way you would have the option of neck or IWB carry. I've been trying to make a similar decision to you and I think this is the way I'll go. I have seen the Merlin advertised at the <a href="HTTP://store.knifecenter.com/pgi-Product%20Spec?SP21SBK">KnifeCenter</a> and you can see a picture <a href="http://www.spyderco.com/knife/cat_cp21bk.html">here</a>.

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Take care,
Clay

Don't worry that the world might end tomorrow....in Australia it's tomorrow already.

 
Hi, just wanted to wade in with a couple of observations. An individual’s choice in self defense weapons should always be based on what style of use a person is most comfortable with. The defensive moves with knives are generally categorized as either thrusts or slashes. Roadrunner, the first question you should ask yourself before carrying a knife for defense is which style of defense are you most comfortable in employing?

Slashing attacks tend to cause larger wounds that bleed more profusely and cause a greater psychological impact on the target. The disadvantages of slashing attacks are that while the wounds the cause are larger, they cause less actual damage to the target as most arteries/vital organs are several inches (at least) from the surface of the target. The other big disadvantage is that slashing attacks are generally harder to connect with. Think about it, your arm is making a curve. The only part of that curve that is dangerous is the very end where the blade is. To work, that curve needs to intersect the target. If the target moves towards or away from the center of the curve the shot will be blocked or miss.

Thrusting attacks tend to cause more lethal damage as they pierce internal organs and arteries. Thrusting attacks are also easier (for most people) to land because they are an extension of a punch. No distance estimation is required because the blade goes until your fist impacts (I am simplifying technique here!). The disadvantages are that you have to commit more of you weight to a thrust attack which may put you off balance and the damage caused by a deep penetration, while more lethal, is less immediate in effect. Bleeding is internal, fewer severed muscles or tendons, etc.

If you are unsure about what I mean about landing an attack, try this little test: Take an empty 2 liter plastic bottle and place it on the edge of a table or post at about chest height. Stand back about 4-6 feet from it. Now hit it with your knife. What was your first reaction to trying to hit it, swinging your arm for a slash or punching with the tip? Try doing both several times and try to imaging doing either in a panicked situation with the target trying to get out of the line of attack. It sounds silly, but it should make you think.

So, Roadrunner: thrust or slash?

As Corduroy pointed out, hooked and serrated blades like the Civilian, Harpy and Matriarch are the epitome of slashing blades and it would be hard to go wrong with any of them. They are also very useful if your attacker try’s to grapple with you, a common situation with smaller victims. But the tips on each are out of alignment with the action of a punch making them harder to stab with if that is the style you favor.

Knives like the Endura, Military and Police all tend to be longer, thinner and have pronounced tips which makes then ideal for a thrusting attack. However, they generally lack the weight or belly to land a solid slash.

I apologize if my post seems pedagogic or rubs counter to other opinions. The topic of defense is one that can (and has!) filled volumes of literature, videos and classes, and it’s all subjective! Personally, if I was only going to carry a blade for defense only it would be a thrusting knife with a good belly like an Endura. Roadrunner, if you find you favor thrust attacks as well, the 98’ with it’s lightweight Zytel handle, metal clip and inexpensive price tag sounds like a good one to look at.

Hope this helps!


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If you try, you may fail. If you don't try, you certainly will.

 
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