Clarifying some opinions on stuff...

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I've been making various posts on Japanese style and my opinions of what makes a good sword in the style.

I wrote this short little essay just recently, to clarify some of my viewpoints and opinions.

I don't suggest you read it if you don't like my opinions, but if you have ever wondered what I think, and what some of my basic standards are, here's the link.

http://www.geocities.com/tierdaen/jstyle.html

Shinryû.
 
It's hard to disagree with anything you said. Especially for me, since my knowledge of swords is very limited. But why should that prevent me from giving my own $.02?
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I think it is pretty obvious that a sword, and particularly the traditional japanese sword, is and was designed and intended for use as a weapon, and it is its performance as a weapon, in terms of being easy and fast to draw and bring to bear, smooth and balanced to wield, effective in penetrating armour and inflicting injury, countering other weapons, and throughout it all surviving the impacts with minimal damage and maximal edge retention that really counted.
I understand that some swords were tested on cadavers and sometimes live bodies and sometimes notations were made on how many bodies were cut through. Some cut through as many as seven. It's difficult to test swords like this nowadays. given the relative shortage of real sword fights and the modern tendency to frown upon slicing through cadavers, prisoners or citizens of lower rank.
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Now, obviously, performance like this has little utility or verifiability for the modern collector or the armchair samurai, although the balance and "speed" of a sword can be measured by practicing with it and some measure of cutting ability and edge retention etc can be tested against bamboo etc.
But even in Japan, the aesthetic qualities of the swords were extemely important, even to the point that they may eventually have become more important than actual "performance". Those qualities themselves originally were indicative of performance. The hamon and differential temper [and other features] was for impact resistance and the different shapes of the hamon were to minimize the extent of impact damage; the super complex grain structures were indicative of the quality of the metal and the forging etc., But the point that fascinates me is to what extent did the traditional arts of the japanese smiths and polishers become more aesthetic than functional? Would one of the great blades really be better, as a weapon, than a sword of the same shape and geometry made of modern steel and modern heat treating etc?
To me, there is no comparison to, say, a Masamune or a real wootz sword and even a copy made in infi or CPM 3V. It's like comparing a Patek to a Seiko. But I really would like to know , objectively and scientifically, how they would compare as weapons in terms of penetration, weight, resistance to impact, edge retention etc.
It is very likely that if these modern materials do perform better objectively, the old warriors, warlords and smiths who made the traditional swords and adapted them to perform better from time to time, would not have been slow themselves to use them in their swords, if they could have.
 
Robert, concerning the functional level of durability, are such swords as you describe in that page supposed to be able to handle impacts against other swords or weapons or blocking implements?

The reason I ask is that several of the tests you describe as not indicating useful performance (whacking planks of wood) because such a level of durability is not necessary, are of far less stress than the above.

Even moving beyond that, if a sword is chopped very hard into a living target, the forces that it will recieve when impacting and twisting in thick bone will be far greater than if you chop down a tree with it.

Ignoring the spiritual aspect of course which can restrict use by disrespect which is of far less severe than the actual intended usage.

-Cliff
 
Cliff,
I thought I might add one note. A traditionalist probably would not agree with the validity of scientific tests as they are done now. One reason is a belief in the imortance of the technique/spiritaulity of the swordsman. A scientist would say, that is irrelevent because a blow is a blow, an impact is an impact, and if you can define and control for the materials, temperature and the momentum, acceleration etc in 3 dimensions + time, that's all there is to it. Quare whether you ever really can do that in a way that replicates actual combat. But there is a nonscientific objection too.
It could be argued that a properly trained swordsman fortifies his blade by extending his chi or Qi and that depends on both the swordsman and the sword. It's a bit like the tai chi sword or the advanced finger techniques of the internal martial arts or "iron shirt" chi gong etc. Classical physics aren't the whole story.
Personally, I'll stick with physics, but due account does have to be taken of the extraordinary technique of a master swordsman..
If I understood this correctly, even the swords of the greatest japanese schools did suffer damage in combat, but the hope was to avoid blade-to-blade contact through technique that permitted clean blows and penetration of body armour [which wasn't full metal as in Europe].
 
I wrote a post addressing some of these things but when I read over it...I kept seeing how people would misinterpret what I say, so I'm going to have another go at it.

Firstly, with proper technique, cutting against the grain of wood with a sword is more difficult than cutting through bone. Wood will break easier, but that's not what the sword does.

Next, while many swords are designed to withstand impacts with armor, they are not designed for it as intentionally as European swords are. Direct contact with other blades is also avoided, especially in orthodox forms of swordsmanship. Deflects using the spine or side are done sometimes, but generally avoided. On some old swords you will see kiri-komi, little gashes on the spine that are usually marks from deflecting another sword.

Well made swords are quite capable of withstanding stress.

Every sword has its limit, where it will chip, crack, bend, or break. Very well made swords will rarely ever encounter their limits in proper use. Bending is the most common of the issues. This comes usually from badly executed cuts. It is one of the reasons why technique is stressed in swordsmanship. However, most blades do a decent job of forgiving the occasional sloppy cut. Some swords are made to be ultra-forgiving to bad cuts, like Howard Clark's bainite-martensite model. Under any reasonable use, and most severe abuse, it won't bend. It's good for those who are beginning cutting and would like that extra bit of confidence that their sword will not be harmed. Those swords are great, there's nothing really wrong with them, but they're not really a favorite of mine.

As far as spirituality, I don't involve that into swordsmanship. Swordsmanship is an art of precision.

I've got nothing against modern steels really. I'm sure 3v would make a fine sword if it were made properly. I wouldn't want it, but it'd still make a fine sword.

The best swords are still made of tamahagane in my opinion.

Shinryû.
 
Robert said "The best swords are still made of tamahagane in my opinion."

Robert, I was just wondering how many swords made of this type of steel have you tested and what were the tests performed?

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There still are knives being made of this stuff in the traditional way [ or according to one of the several traditions ].I know Yoshindo Yoshihara is doing it. I read his book on the subject, "The Craft of The Japanese Sword", among others, and I've seen some of these blades. But I've never had the chance to actually use one, let alone test one. I would love to even see it tested. Hearing about it would be pretty cool too
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Do traditional knife experts get together from time to time outside of japan and have something like the ABS demonstrations and contests? Can I watch?
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Robert,

Could you clarify a few things for me please?

You say "The best swords are still made of tamahagane in my opinion.".

I not saying that you're wrong or right, but I would also like to know how many of these swords you have handled and how you tested them in comparison to other types of swords in order to reach your opinion.

You also say "Some swords are made to be ultra-forgiving to bad cuts, like Howard Clark's bainite-martensite model. Under any reasonable use, and most severe abuse, it won't bend. It's good for those who are beginning cutting and would like that extra bit of confidence that their sword will not be harmed. Those swords are great, there's nothing really wrong with them, but they're not really a favorite of mine"

How many of Mr. Clark's swords have you tested to determine that they're "ultra-forgiving to bad cuts" and can withstand "severe abuse" without bending? How did you test his swords? I'm not familiar with Mr. Clark's work, but it seems that you are. If his work is that good, maybe I'll have him make me a sword. Does he make swords in styles other than japanese?

This statement also implies to me that you are, at least, an advanced student of japanese swordsmanship. What would be the proper blade length, curvature and cross section as well as balance point and handle length for a sword to be used in your ryu? The point was covered very broadly on your web site.

Finally, as a former student of a few different ryu of Karate, Kobujitsu and Aikijitsu myself, I'm curious to know what your ryu is.

Thank you for your time.

Dave Fulton




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Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."
 
Robert Marotz:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">with proper technique, cutting against the grain of wood with a sword is more difficult than cutting through bone.</font>

There are lots of types of wood of varying degrees of hardness and strength, some can easily be cut with far less force than bone, even if you do it in the worst way which is perpendicular to the grain, Alders for example. However in terms of damaging the blades, even the hardest woods I have seen are far softer than bone, I have little experience with Iron wood class vegetation however.

[Howard Clark's bainite-martensite model]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">It's good for those who are beginning cutting and would like that extra bit of confidence that their sword will not be harmed.</font>

With anything beyond really light work, setting your durability standards to 100% performance seems to be very dangerous to me. If for example I was to do this with a heavy chopping blade I would grind them a lot thinner than I do now. However it does not take much to alter a stroke beyond a well directed follow through, dirt on the handle, sudden fatigue / cramp / pain, or simply a target that doesn't behave as expected. This can cause the stress that the blade sees to rise dramatically over what a perfect stroke will see.

In regards to combat, it seems odd to me that you could ever even expect this to be the norm 100 percent of the time. If you are cutting into targets of known composition that are stationary, and you are at 100% then yes it is possible. However if what you are cutting is moving then the edge will see twisting and the resultant torques will be high. The material could also have unknown properties that cause the blade to twist because of the way it gets cut. Or your physical ability may simply not be there for any number of reasons.

As an example of one such case, if you cut at a stationary wooden dowel you can yes get a perfect cut at a nice angle and shear it in half. If I swing the same dowel at you and you attempt to cut it (or block which is worse) while it is in movement, unless my vector is aligned perfectly with yours, the perfect strike is no more. On a more gory point, heavy cuts into moving targets that contact bone are also very difficult. I have done stationary cuts and then cuts into swinging targets and the difference it makes to the edge damage is huge for very basic reasons.

-Cliff
 
Some further clarification...

L6: Every registered sword made in Japan is made of Tamahagane or similar accepted material (oroshigane for example). I have examined and appreciated *many*, but only used 7 or 8 swords made of the stuff, though I did have the privilege of using a rather valuable gendaito in a group cutting exercise (it felt as beautiful as it looked). However, I have never, nor will I ever do destructive testing on one that isn't replaceable. Even if I could afford to!!!
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When I said I think it makes the best swords, I didn't mean it holds the best edge or bends the farthest necessarily. I said I think it makes the best swords. I like it the most. If you disagree, that's your decision.

Dave Fulton: I haven't been able to test the blades of Howard's myself, though I do understand a fair amount about the science behind it, as well as knowing and seeing other people do destructive testing on them. If you want a really forgiving cutting sword, I think that'd be your choice. There were also some minor tests from wayyy back in the summer 1999 issue of SFI (at the time SFMO) magazine. And my preferences are (trying to use english terms, sorry if I don't make much sense) approx 5/8" curvature...curvature focused near the center of the sword's entirety. For a strictly cutting sword, the apex of the curvature could be focused slightly forward on the blade. I like balance point between 4.5 and 5" from the guard, though the overall feel is more important than the balance point itself. The handle for me should be 10 to 10.5" long, cutting edge between 28 and 29". I like a softer level of convexity, and a medium-sized point. Longitudinal ridge should be "high" but not dramatically so. I also like the blade to be made of steel, and I like it to be pretty. I like wrap to be silk, and the rayskin nodules to be large, and the entire sword should have absolutely no brass on it at all. These are all personal preferences.

And I'm a practitioner of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaijutsu, since you were curious.

Cliff:

I'm not talking about dowels really. I, and many other people will sometimes use oak or maple dowels in the core of rolled wara. Sort of the "bone" so to speak. I'm talking about trees and heavy branches and planks of wood and the like. Also nobody should assume their target will be motionless. If all of swordsmanship were just learning how to cut a stationary target such as a roll of tatami (or even just cutting by itself), it would be a lot simpler, and a lot less worth learning. Test cutting on stationary targets is a very small part of the swordsmanship thing, though it certainly is a help to learning.

Shinryû.

Addendum...I'm going to be gone for a the next few days, some problems in my life that I can't ignore any longer, and being online is a hassle I can do without for the time being. Don't make too much of a mess while I'm gone.

[This message has been edited by Robert Marotz (edited 06-08-2001).]
 
Dave,

I believe that Rob's right about Howard Clark's L6 blades. No, I haven't tested them myself but I've seen the reports and pictures of those that have and as far as I can tell the thing is darned near indestructible. They beat on all kinds of stuff with it, including feeder pipe, metal drums etc. etc. with no chips, no bends and no cracks. I'd certainly get one if I could afford it.
 
Robert,

Straight from the hip ... It's apparent that you're a young man with a great deal of passion for japanese swords and swordsmanship and that you have done a lot of reading on these subjects. I think that's a very good thing, btw. However, it's equally apparent that you have very little first hand knowledge or experience and that most of your "expert opinion" is merely parroting what you have read or been told by someone else. That it not a good thing.

Take the advice of someone who has been where you are now and stop it. You are not coming off as cool or an expert, because people see you for what you really are, a "paper tiger". You'll learn more by being honest about what you know and who you are.

I hope this helps.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton
 
Actually most of my experience is first hand, Dave. I have only one book on the subject, which was a gift from a friend and I enjoy it as casual reading. And yes, part of teaching is discussion with people who understand more than you do, but that's not all there is to it. I'm only relatively new to the craft portion of it, as I've only studied and tried that in the last year or two. I would have continued experimentation if I had the financial backing for it, but I don't have the finances or the space, so I was unable to continue pursuing that. I tried to become an apprentice polisher too, but I was turned down. If things had worked out in one of those categories, I would be a maker or polisher now. Maybe in the future things will turn brighter and I'll get to take advantage of those things though.

I'm giving my opinion. I never EVER declared myself to be an expert, and if you recall, the subject of this thread was clarifying some of my opinions. If you want to construe me as an arrogant, condescending prick, by all means go ahead, it's almost sort of true, or at least it can be interpreted that way. However, I give my opinion when the occasional person has been curious for clarification on some of my beliefs. It happens somewhat often as a matter of fact. I explained it for them.

I don't appreciate you insulting me and making assumptions about who I am. If you hold prejudices because a moderator who has some knowledge and experience is young, the door is open. If you want to openly insult me or anyone else on this forum, again the door is open.

On that note, I'm going to stop being so loud with my opinions in threads that are fundamentally against my values and beliefs. I can only hope that it'd set a better example.

Shinryû.
 
Well Robert, your posts don't really bear out the fact that most of your knowledge is first hand and I'm not the only one who thinks so. I have seen public and private communications of that.

You want to talk about insulting people and making assumptions about people, let's look at a couple of your more recent posts:

1.) "If you hung around longer to hear me continue my sentence on that topic...
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO."

And:

2.) "It is disrespectful and impractical to seek a sword for home defense. Even with guns out of the picture, I simply do not condone the use of swords in this way. And I mean no offense but you also probably do not know how to use a sword properly in the first place. I've made posts before about this kind of thing."

Both are insulting and making assumptions about who someone else is or needs. I could dig up more (I've already gone back and looked), but I think the two examples above make my point clearly enough.

It's not "almost sort of true". To use your own words, you are "an arrogant, condescending prick," Robert. Again, I'm not the only one who thinks so. The only prejudices I hold against you are the ones you've given me from what you've posted. Again, I went back and read a lot of what you've posted.

By all means, go right ahead and keep being loud with your opinions because it will just serve to remove more doubt (see my previous post). What type of "better example" you hope to set is beyond me.

Dave.


 
Dave,
Not to start a pi$$ing contest by any means, and without trying to look like I'm running to Robert's defense, I have to point out that the qoutes you reference in that post are much taken out of context.
That post was the continuation of an interuppted chat conversation that you were probably not privy to, (my apology if I'm mistaken)and you will note that bteel admitted that Robert was correct in his assumption. And I mean no offense but you also probably do not know how to use a sword properly in the first place.
It appears, that Robert also changed bteel's mind. I think this is a GOOD thing. Too many people think that using a sword is somehow intuitive, and that they know how to use it without any sort of instruction. Nothing could be further from the truth.

To misqoute someone's signature line,
"Having a sword doesn't make you a swordsman any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician." (don't remember who's tag that is, if you read this, my apologies.)

Dave,
I dunno, I don't understand what's causing this "feeding frenzy." Not to single you out, but you asked "How many of these swords have you used?" "What Ryu do you study?" and so on, and every time Robert's come back and given you a straightforward answer to all your questions, which you then proceed to blithely ignore those answers, telling him he's a paper tiger and so on. Whazzup with that?
There are things he says that he clearly states are his opinions or personal beliefs, and then there are things he states as pretty much established fact.
Argue the facts if you like, but can you condemn him for his beliefs?
I really don't understand why so many people are gunning for him so to speak. Care to enlighten me?




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Tráceme no sin la razón, envoltura mi no sin honor
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MOLON LABE!
 
Ken,

Whether or not Robert was correct in his assumption about Bteel is not the point. He said he was insulted by my assumption about his background, well I was just pointing out that he had no room to talk. The pot calling the kettle black as it were.

Whether or not he changed Bteel's mind and how much training is needed to be able to use a sword was not the point either. The point is the insulting, arrogant way that he stated his opinion. Like Don said, he talked the way you do when you're scolding a child. Maybe Bteel shouldn't depend on a sword for home defense, since he doesn't know how to use it, but he definitely didn't need to be spoken to that way for asking a legitimate question.

On top his insultingly arrogant way of stating his opinions, I have seen several things in what he writes that leave me with reservations about just how much he really knows about swords and how they're used. Again, I went back and read his web site and a bunch of what he has written on BF in an attempt to be sure that I wasn't mis-reading him or being too hard on him. The more I read, the greater my reservations become. I'm not the only one who's questioning him either.

Btw, I CAN condemn a person for their beliefs, when those beliefs would condemn or my own or otherwise harm myself or those I care for.

I find Robert to be arrogant, insulting and have reservations about how much he really knows. That is my opinion and I'll stand by it until such time as I see enough warrant thinking otherwise.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton


[This message has been edited by Dave Fulton (edited 06-11-2001).]
 
Robet has a way of forcing knowledge down, and he is rather fundamentalistic traditional about swords, especially japanese stuff.

But that still does not justify some people insulting him.. you all signed a certain agreement when signing up here.

Robert is tying to share his extensive knowledge with the world and this is how you wanna thank him? He may be wrong, he may be stepping on people's toes. But this forum is free people. prove the opposit and it'll be O.K. Give your contraring opinion and it'll be O.K.... but some people seem to want to crucify Robert..Why make it personal?

Robert can be tough to talk sense in (try and have a chat session and you'll know). but he lives his life, and if that is what he wants, who are you to judge him? Robert has NEVER talked at me personal, or with a laughing undertone, or when I was annoying him (and i can be annoying
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).

There some people you don't seem to understand.
1.A sword is NOT a long knife. It should not be looked at that way because it has an edge. It is a totally different thing, which has more incommon with a stick then a knife.

2. A sword has a totally different context then a knife, and it should not be used on trees, wood .. other stuff.. It is not a frggin' machete! A japanese sword is so much more, nearly poethic as a weapon. Weapon folks. Not a tool for defense. Not a tool for fighting. A Weapon to kill. And there is a difference, but you'll only understand that when you really understand what a sword is. And I see only a few people talk about swords here, Robert being one.

If this is your problem, rename this forum to long-tools forums or such and Robert will back off. I refused to post here, because long knives are my personal interest, I would not be worthy of a real katana (and I doubt some of you guys either). The responsability that comes with a katana, the honour. Ever tought of that?

And if you wanna make it personal, Robert has got enough problems on his own. He doesn't need some people trying to bring down his credibility just because they don't seem to like him.

And if that is the case, just shake your head, think robert is wrong and read the next thread unless you have something sensible to say.

Greetz, Bart.

 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Posted by Robert:
On that note, I'm going to stop being so loud with my opinions in threads that are fundamentally against my values and beliefs.
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Self defense is fundamentally against your values and beliefs? Or just self defense with a sword?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Posted by Bart:
Weapon folks. Not a tool for defense.
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A weapon is not a tool for defense?

Curious,

Razor

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AKTI #A000845
 
This has gone far enough.

As much as I hate to use my privileges as a moderator, this thread has twisted dramatically from its intention. I don't like being insulted directly, which is in violation of the rules, and I think we all have better things to talk about. People who show any sort of support are merely propagating this, despite their intentions.

It's time to move on, folks.
I'm here to learn too...particularly about European and Chinese swords. Please...let's be above this personal attack stuff and move on.

Shinryû.
 
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