clay coat using satanite

D

Dana Hackney

Joined
Nov 1, 2005
Messages
174
Hi folks,

I thougth I'd try my hand at clay coating a bowie to achieve a wavey looking hammon and thought I'd better run this by the forum. I've got some satanite I purchased from Darren Ellis a while back and figured I'd use this for the clay. This is forged 1080 I'm working with.

My question: how do I go about applying the coat? Do I cover the entire blade with a light coat of satanite and then put a heavy (wavey) coat from the spine downwards toward the edge? Also, once done, I'm guessing I bring the whole nine yards up to critical in the forge and then quench the entire blade.

I just wanted to make sure I had all bases covered before I get started.

Thanks guys!
Dana Hackney
Monument, CO
 
I have only done hamon of 1050 steel.

I did a few katana that were in a water-quench and used the same clay as you have.

I just drew a line on the blade where I wanted the future hamon to be, and put the clay there
I scraped the spine free of clay to try to stop the blade from bending too much.

Oh thats a thing you have to know about, the slow cooling of the hot blade may well cause the blade to bend like as seen in a japanese katana.....
 
I find the clay stays on better if you wrap steel wire around the blade first about a 1/2" apart. Something I've wanted to try instead of clay was drywall mub since I had some on hand. It don't work. Turns to powder and falls off but at least I know now.
 
Mix the satanite with water until it has a "clay" like consistency.

Dab a wet paper towel in the clay and wipe this all over the entire blade, helps prevent decarburization. Let it dry, you can speed up the drying with a blow torch, just use it to evaporate the water.

Next, clay coat the blade, clay thickness has to be at least 3/16".

P.S. Don't forget to normalize at least twice first, and if it's your first time, I would avoid using water, water's destroyed many a good blade. Brownell's Tough Quench, Olive Oil, Transmission Oil, all will work well.

Have fun!
 
flatgrinder said:
you can speed up the drying with a blow torch, just use it to evaporate the water.
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This was always my biggest problem.
I never had clay fall off, but I did have a big problem with the clayy puffing up like so much popcorn the moment it was placed into the forge.

The puffing clay would open up air pockets next to the steel sometimes. This in turn would lead to about the crappest hamon you could ever find.
 
For Carbon steels, I coat the blade with Turco and then coat the back with Satanite. It sticks really well. Let each material dry well before the next step. The Satanite doesn't come off until the quench at the earliest.
 
Raymond, Alan, Flatgrinder and Steve, for all the help. Unfortunately, I don't have any turco so I'll have to resort to taking the time to apply the satanite slowly and carefully. I think I'll experiment on a smaller blade before graduating to the bigger bowie.

I'll also do the normallizing (using my forge - also don't have a high temp salt tank:().

Thanks again guys!
Dana
 
Alan Molstad said:
This was always my biggest problem.
I never had clay fall off, but I did have a big problem with the clayy puffing up like so much popcorn the moment it was placed into the forge.

The puffing clay would open up air pockets next to the steel sometimes. This in turn would lead to about the crappest hamon you could ever find.
Click to expand...

i never would have thought about it but clay needs to be "wedged" or it could blow off. slip wont have this problem
 
I find this product very good for the thin layer.I then thicken it with satanite to finesse the hamon line.The ATP doesn't give you a hard time cleaning up afterwards .It washes right off and the steel is practically as clean as it was prior to heat treating.Its great stuff.

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=23076&title=ANTI+SCALE+COATING

lilham.jpg
 
I'll look into getting some of this stuff. That is one really nice hamon!

Thanks for the tip.

Best regards,
Dana
 
Dogpack said:
i never would have thought about it but clay needs to be "wedged" or it could blow off.
Click to expand...

In the end, what I learned to do is coat the spine of the blade with the fireplace clay, and then place the knife in the hot kitchen oven and let it heat up in there for a long time.
This seemed to dry the clay in the same place,shape and form I wanted.

The clay falls off ,(more or less) after about 4 or 5 seconds in the water quench anyway.

The other thing I learned to do was to use an "interrupted" water quench on 10XX steels. I still got a good hamon, but it helped to get the steel out of the water , off-and-on, as it was quenched....(all this was to lower the chance of a crack.)

Oh, I should list the problem I ran into with the use of wire.
I was heating the wire and clay covered blade in the forge. I always check the temp of the steel with a magnet.

However with the addition of wire wrap on the outside of the blade I found it hard to tell for sure if I was testing the temp of the blade, or just of the wire?
 
Ive never had much problem with satanite popping off.As the forge is heating up I pass the coated blade across one of the ports and in a few minutes its ready to bring up to temp.One more key thing about coating with anything whether it be ace hardware 100 year fireplace cement or the purest rice ash from the east.Make darn sure the blade is squeeky clean.It will help make the difference in the popping off deal.Ive tried to get away from the paint the hamon thing.Steel prep and time and temperature and a little bit of coating go a long way.One question I will ask you .What are you going to use to judge the temperature you are going to quench the steel?I like going to the low end of the range and sometimes a magnet can let you go a bit too far.Just curious,:)
 
I like satanite as a clay coating. What works for me is to apply a thin coat first
along the desired hamon. Put the blade in a plastic tent overnight, it will dry with no lifting whatsoever. apply the heavier coat on top, let this dry slightly
and you are ready to heat treat. Use a light sprinkling of Borax wherever the clay does not cover the blade to reduce decarb.

Good luck, Fred
 
...what kind of borax works, Fred? Can I use the 20 mule team stuff or do I need the good stuff?

Kind regards!
Dana
 
Like Glenn said, squeeky clean is the ticket to keeping the satanite on the blade. I put it on and go straight to the forge and HT, nerver bubble or pop off, I clean with warm water and 409 before applying. 1425f to 1450f with a few minutes soak and quench in a fast oil. 1080 is not the best choice but it'll work. Practice, practice, pratice for cool hamon.
 
Fred.Rowe said:
Use a light sprinkling of Borax wherever the clay does not cover the blade to reduce decarb.
Click to expand...
Just so I understand this idea....

Lets say i sprinke some lite Borax on the un-clayed steel.
Then heat with the O/A torch, or place inside a forge to heat the steel.

Is there any danger of the Borax screwing up the Hamon pattern?

I ask because during the few times I have experimented with Borax it had a way of lumping up in the forge.

I keep thinking that all you would need is a small little lumping of the borax, or even just a slight nick of the Borax against the side of the torch or forge as you moved the blade in the heat, and you might end up with a spot in the final hamon there?....

.
 
I forgot to answer Glenn regarding how I judge my temps. I do, indeed, have to use a magnet, as I don't have a high temp salt tank (yet).

I quench in light olive oil (120-160 deg).

Dana
 
Very nice, indeed....! I just opned up your webpage and did the shop tour, as well as looked at the forging demo on the little giant - again, very nice shop and a great litlle demo. I'm assumuing the finished blades at the bottom are the ones in the demo? If so, and it's 1086? (1080/1084?), the hamon looks great!

Dana
 
Alan Molstad said:
Just so I understand this idea....

Lets say i sprinke some lite Borax on the un-clayed steel.
Then heat with the O/A torch, or place inside a forge to heat the steel.

Is there any danger of the Borax screwing up the Hamon pattern?

I ask because during the few times I have experimented with Borax it had a way of lumping up in the forge.



Thats a valid concern Alan. The first couple of times I tried this technique,

thats what occured. I heated the blade in the forge and the borax lumped

in a couple of spots. These areas did not quench fast enough leaving me

with soft spots below the hamon. Not Good!

What I did to alleviate the lumps in the borax, was one, use a pizza shaker

with the small holes to apply it. 2nd, When the borax goes liquid I use a

small brass bristled brush to smooth out areas that appear too thick.

I start at the riccaso and stroke toward the tip. No problems sence.

I apply the borax after the clay application is set. I first heat the blade to a

temp where the borax will flow quickly when it is applied.

Fred
Click to expand...
 
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