Cliff, how did those D2 kitchen knives work out?

This in particular never came to pass, I had a lot of projects planned with Mel, nice CPM-3V knives also. However I have given kitchen knives as gifts through the years and have found in general most people need overbuilt knives. I gave a AISI 420 HC Chef's knife from Wilson to a friend and the tip was damaged in prying.

This damage isn't a fault of the knife design, it simply has a very thin tip for precise cutting. However a lot of people around here are used to the older high carbon blades as that is what they grew up with and they have 1/8" tips with no taper.

I currently use a japanese utility knife for most kitchen work, very fine edge (0.005" thick, hollow relief on primary chisel grind, edge is ~20 degrees included). Very hard steel, which while I find excellent I would not recommend to many here as it would quite simply get mangled in a very short period of time.

Based on a lot of sharpening and repairs over the last few years I would not recommend D2 locally, it will just rust too badly, same for ATS-34 and similar steels. AISI 420 HC at ~55 HRC is what I would generally suggest. It will resist rusting enough to the extent it can be readily left wet even covered in fruit acids with little effect.

I would also suggest the edge not go thinner than 0.015 and the primary bevel angle be 15 with a 22 degree secondary which is large enough to be visible. The tip taper should also not be extreme, not drop under 1/16", and be mainly 1/8". Use a wide blade to get the necessary cutting ability.

I have used D2 extensively in the kitchen and it works very well if ran hard. The impaction resistance is quite high and it can resist denting very strongly off the occasional hard impacts, no chopping or twisting in bone of course. However it has to be rinsed frequently, and not left wet.


-Cliff
 
It was terribly sad when we lost Mel. It never occured to me that he might have been part of the plan.

It is very true that casual users abuse knives. It is not a new thing and you can only do so much with improved geometries. I sharpened my first kitchen knife about 45 years ago. I remember finding bent and broken tips and nicked blade back then. They were all non-stainless at that time. The tips were a little thicker than some of the finer knives now, but they were never a match for the users. About 35 years ago I spent a summer going door-to-door sharpening knives. By that point you'd find a mix of stainless and non-stainless blades. I had to fix a lot of points and grind out chips. Sometimes I would be hammering and bending blades. Currently I pick up a lot of used kitchen knives at Goodwill Thrift Stores for use in the local soup kitchen for the homeless. I pass over a lot of knives that are damaged, but these days most knives are throw-away quality and are thrown away if damaged.

I gave up the concept of the idiot-proof kitchen knife. If you made it heavy enough to be invulnerable it would make a lousy kitchen knife. People frequently baton kitchen knives through bones and things. The best solution I can think of is to give someone a decent carbon steel cleaver along with a knife for some hope that they will pick the cleaver when they go on a rampage.

I take the opposite approach. I'll give someone a knife that will outperform their other knives and tell them to treat it like a surgical instrument. I often give them a knife with no point which helps some. The classic in this category is the MAC Original Series UK-60. This is fully tapered and only 1.5mm thick. It is pretty hard, 58-59 RC, but easy to sharpen since it is so thin. I met a housewife who maintained hers by honing on the back of a dinner plate. Even when dull it outperforms most knives in the kitchen.

http://www.macknife.com/page3.html
 
I sure agree that most new users of knives really do abuse them. You wouldn't believe some of the knives that I've sharpened and the condition they were in. It always amazes me that so many people pry with a knife, and I mean pry hard!
And you wouldn't believe all the stainless steel blades that I've sharpened that were rusty!
 
Thanks for the link Jeff, they look like solid users. I have tried the light use approach, but the blades get too badly damaged. It works for awhile, but it only takes one bad turn to really tear up an optimal knife.

What I have been doing recently is using the belt sander to hog off the primary edge grind and thin the primary blade grind if necessary, or doing this with a file if the steel is new for experience. This greatly raises the cutting ability and on my knives I'll leave them in this state.

However for friends I lay a 22 degree bevel on top which greatly raises the durability without giving up much cutting ability. Most people let their knives get terribly dull before using them, it isn't uncommon to have them come back with the secondary bevel worn competely away.

The most highly praised kitchen knives around here are carbon steel, little distal taper, 1/8" thick or more, the patina is dead black. These double as knives for butchering and for fish work (less of both these days), and some have been used for four generations.

You will frequently find a chef's knife that has been steeled so much that it now resembles a fillet blade, now that takes a few years. Eventually it gets whittled down into a paring knife.

Yeah, Mel was a rare one, in a time of constant hype and overpromotion he always spoke evenly without attempt at anything except fact. I would have really liked to get more of his work, especially one of his large 3V blades. Check this out :

http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Lab/1298/madpoet/edge1.jpg

-Cliff
 
Geocities can be fairly retarded. If you hit that link directly and it isn't in the cache you get an error. If you then hop back to the directory in the address it opens fine. You can then hit the link to the picture and it loads fine.

-Cliff
 
Jeff, thanks for the MAC Knives link, pretty interesting. I'll probably pick myself up one or two, but I have to hide them -- you don't want to know what the edges on my fine Japanese cutlery look like once the other members of my household get ahold of them.

Joe
 
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