clones/copies discussion

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morvlorv

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Hey Crew, I was curious about something....
I am not trying to get into any arguments, so lets please keep it civil, I know this topic pulls at the string of a lot of folks.

I have recently gotten into watches, and will be starting a watch collection.
In looking at and researching all sorts of watches, I have seen and read about "homages".
From what I gather of this, other companies makes watches that look just like other high end watches, and they call it a "homage". Some homages ever bear the name of the original.
They arent called copies, or fakes or counterfeits by the watch community.

It got me thinking about the knife community, and why do they not have the same attitude?
I have read countless threads on here of people ripping knife makers apart if there are any similarities to other knives.

I get the counterfeiting is wrong argument, and that is fake knives that claim to be the real deal, and even have the company marking on them, thats wrong in every way I can see.

But a lot of these knives that get a bad rap just look like other knives, they arent marketed as such, and they are not marked as such, and yet they take a lot of flack.

Are these not in the same boat as an "homage" watch? If not, why is that?
 
The watch community has simply accepted counterfeiting, whereas the knife community has not. When they find a counterfeit, they call it "an homage" to salve their conscience and allow themselves to purchase a known fake because, well, they really want a real one but they can't afford it, and no one will be able to tell it's a fake, right? So they might as well go ahead and support the thief...excuse me, the "homage maker" by purchasing the counterfeit. The knife community has not quite descended to that level yet. We still call fakes "fakes" and we still call thieves "thieves". I guess we're just old-fashioned that way.
 
Does this apply to fixed blades at all? I only ask because I figure there are only so many shapes you can grind a blade into, so it's hard to imagine a lot of innovation going on.
 
Actually, you are slightly wrong. The watch community does not accept outright fakes. Fake rolex’s arent cool. But homage watches are accepted. Just don’t try to pass it off as the real thing.

Homage watches aren’t about fooling people into thinking you have the real thing. It’s as often about wanting the basic style but with differences from the original. For example, I have a submariner, a squale and a steinhart. They are all very similar, 2 being considered homages, but still quite different. The homages don’t try to be the Rolex. They are their own thing that have the flavor of the sub. Think frame lock. There are many out there. But they are all basically copied off of Reeve frame lock design. They all have their own tweaks, their own additions, etc but they are all based on the lineage of the first maker.

But be assured. If you go over to a watch forum with a fake Rolex, you will be shunned (except on the forums dedicated to outright fakes). Fakes aren’t allowed on eBay, and generally frowned upon. And there are some stunningly good fakes out there.

Here’s mine. Obviously the squale is different. Slightly larger, thicker, beefier yet still just a 40mm Watch. The domed crystal is amazing on those. Great diver. The steinhart is closer to the sub. But the ceramic bezel while still being slim lugged and not so bulky as the new ceramic subs, and should resist scratching quite well. I knocked it pretty good on a cinder block last night and left no mark. And the sub. A classic.

8rxzM2R.jpg
 
Those are some nice time pieces SVT, and thanks for the civil reply, hah.
I for sure understand the concept of the blatant copies that even put the same names on their items to make them look the like real thing being wrong in every way, but I also see many that are exactly as you explain the watches, and they still get crucified.

There is a certain $15 knife that starts with a 7 and from a company in china that starts with an S, hah.
This knife is hated on as a copy of a Reeve, but ive never seen it marketed as a Reeve and it doesnt have any of the same marking on it at all as the original, and I frankly think they look quite different. I own a real deal and I think its a long shot to say its a copy any more than a watch homage.

While I would love to be able to afford any of those watches you have pictured, I wont ever be able to afford the real deal Sub, and thats when I found out about homages.
Does it have anything to do with pricing? I noticed those pieces you posted are still upper end watches, while not in the same price range as the Sub, but still upper end.
Ive been eyeballing a Stuhrling, it a cheapo out of hong kong i believe. Is this an homage or in the territory of a rip off since its cheap?
pluVog0
 
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morvlorv said:
Hey Crew, I was curious about something....
I am not trying to get into any arguments, so lets please keep it civil, I know this topic pulls at the string of a lot of folks.

I have recently gotten into watches, and will be starting a watch collection.
In looking at and researching all sorts of watches, I have seen and read about "homages".
From what I gather of this, other companies makes watches that look just like other high end watches, and they call it a "homage". Some homages ever bear the name of the original.
They arent called copies, or fakes or counterfeits by the watch community.

It got me thinking about the knife community, and why do they not have the same attitude?
I have read countless threads on here of people ripping knife makers apart if there are any similarities to other knives.

I get the counterfeiting is wrong argument, and that is fake knives that claim to be the real deal, and even have the company marking on them, thats wrong in every way I can see.

But a lot of these knives that get a bad rap just look like other knives, they arent marketed as such, and they are not marked as such, and yet they take a lot of flack.

Are these not in the same boat as an "homage" watch? If not, why is that?
Click to expand...

In a sense, there are "homage" knives that are accepted by the knife community, like Bob Loveless designs. But they are advertised and sold as "Loveless Style" or "Bob Loveless Design" knives and are often marked as such. Bob Loveless himself encouraged the use of his designs by other makers and particularly by hobbyists and makers just starting to learn.

Mr. Loveless co-authored a book called "How to Make Knives". In that book he freely shared, step by step, his construction and techniques to make his drop point hunter and a sheath!

Now, is it right for someone (or some company) to make this knife and fake his logo on that knife and then sell it on the internet for $60? Or for someone to try and pass it off as their own design?

Bob Loveless was a legend of knifemaking and many makers pay homage to his designs and no one has a problem with that.
But to blatantly steal another company's designs and try to sell them as the real thing, or as some kind of "homage" while taking money from that company's hard work and possibly damaging their reputation with the people who unknowingly buy the crap fakes...that just doesn't fly!

Even if the fakes were as good or better than the original genuine knives, it's still stealing and its not right!
 
I think it has something to do with the fact that many iconic "essential for collector" watches such as the Rolex Sub are very expensive compared to knives in the same catagory such as a Sebenza. Since the legit watches are out of a person's price range they are more likely to justify things to themselves and get a "homage."

I saw a video of a Chinese farmer who built himself a "Lamborghini" out of scrap metal and I believe a tractor engine. Could he afford a real one he would look disdainfully down at the fake one. However as he will never be able to buy a real Lambo, the fake is his beloved pimp mobile.

We also have to accept that no matter how we feel different cultures have different opinions on reproducing fakes of a piece they saw.

Funny though how much China hated having its art and pottery copied for the European market back when genuine porcelain was not being made in the west.
 
Usually when China copies something they don't pay attention to what the end user is going to try to call it afterwards to justify it to themselves. Edit: they dropped putting original logos on blades, so i guess they care about certain consumer... On a second thought.
In this video Sal talks about the mentality of Chinese hommage producers.
 
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Thank you.

While they aren’t cheap Walmart timex or casios, they def arent upper end. Kind of the sebenza/hinderer of watches.

I’ll also admit that in many ways, the squale and steinhart surpass the submariner, bit that is likely because my sub is a mid 90’s model before the advent of the solid end links and better bracelets. Although, that can be argued also, as many people don’t like the bulk of the new sub bracelets. The other two have many of the upgrades without the bulk.

I def understand the confusion though. The eBay shiro knocks offs look nothing like the originals. Yet are advertised as being shiro’s and shiro fakes. Yet if they just sold them as is, with their own branding, they would be a good looking knife with some of the shiro flavor to them. I, personally, wouldn’t frown on that. But I know there are people who would.
 
thats for the civil conversation guys.
Im still as confused an torn as ever, hah.

You see, I have purchased one of these knives that everyone hates years ago as my first knife in collecting.
This was before I learned of all the reasons why people frown upon them.
Since then, I have not purchased knives like that.

Now that im starting a new collection, I didnt want to fall prey again and support the ones that are not original.
But in doing research and reading, I found out the watch community doesnt mind.
Im torn.
 
morvlorv said:
thats for the civil conversation guys.
Im still as confused an torn as ever, hah.

You see, I have purchased one of these knives that everyone hates years ago as my first knife in collecting.
This was before I learned of all the reasons why people frown upon them.
Since then, I have not purchased knives like that.

Now that im starting a new collection, I didnt want to fall prey again and support the ones that are not original.
But in doing research and reading, I found out the watch community doesnt mind.
Im torn.
Click to expand...
Well, then maybe you can just buy fake watches and buy real knives!;)
 
I don't agree with copies branded as to be a ZT or spyderco or whatever.

I don't dislike knives like ganzo because they don't 100% copy and use their own name.
They take a disign they like, change it somewhat, make it thier own way and don't try to pass is off as anything other than that.

With some brands pricing thier knives just too high you're bound to get companies that think
'Hey, could do something 80%-90% as good at 10% the cost.'
 
basmca said:
I don't agree with copies branded as to be a ZT or spyderco or whatever.

I don't dislike knives like ganzo because they don't 100% copy and use their own name.
They take a disign they like, change it somewhat, make it thier own way and don't try to pass is off as anything other than that.

With some brands pricing thier knives just too high you're bound to get companies that think
'Hey, could do something 80%-90% as good at 10% the cost.'
Click to expand...
It's not their designs to take and it's no where near 80-90% as good.
 
1. We do not discuss knife related topics in The Community Forum.

2. We do not discuss clones/fakes/homages on BFC.

3. We do not condone the selling or buying of clones, fakes, or homages and will not entertain it.

This thread is now closed.
 
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