Closed half folder = folder or fixed?

Jens Schuetz

Jens Schuetz

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Jun 24, 2013
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I found this Italian folding bayonet where when it's folded still half of the blade sticks out so it could be used like a smaller fixed blade.
If this classifies as a closed folder it would be legal to carry concealed in CA. If it's however seen as unfolded it wouldn't be.

https://www.google.com/search?ie=UT...owser&q=folding+bayonet#imgrc=iO7hT_z2l9YDgM:

If the handle is folded over half the blade would it legally be a closed folder or still be treated like a fixed blade?

I don't plan on carrying bayonets in public or test the law but thought it's an
interesting in between knife which might be hard to classify and was curious what smarter people than me might think about it.
 
Well, first, your link goes to a google search not a specific knife. Second, why would anyone want to carry a knife that has part of the blade purposefully exposed when closed?

It's a bayonet, and I think law enforcement/judges could easily argue that a bayonet is always a weapon.
 
Counts as a fixed blade. California Penal Code 16470 says the following:

As used in this part, “dirk” or “dagger” means a knife or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death. A nonlocking folding knife, a folding knife that is not prohibited by Section 21510, or a pocketknife is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death only if the blade of the knife is exposed and locked into position.
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They were clever to word the law that folding knife doesn't have to be merely open, but rather if the blade is exposed. I have a feeling that the lawmakers were familiar with this type of bayonet when they wrote it.
 
ALLHSS said:
Well, first, your link goes to a google search not a specific knife. Second, why would anyone want to carry a knife that has part of the blade purposefully exposed when closed?

It's a bayonet, and I think law enforcement/judges could easily argue that a bayonet is always a weapon.
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When I click on the link it only shows me the picture. Well phone browsers are different sometimes. Sorry.
Why would want to carry any bayonet at all? Thing is you could open carry it in Ca. Only concealed would not be allowed unless it's folded.
Is half folded over the blade enough or not would be the question.
 
glistam said:
Counts as a fixed blade. California Penal Code 16470 says the following:



They were clever to word the law that folding knife doesn't have to be merely open, but rather if the blade is exposed. I have a feeling that the lawmakers were familiar with this type of bayonet when they wrote it.
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That's surprisingly smart. All thumps up.
Exposed And Locked however still leaves room. If the handle could swing around freely and wouldn't be locked it would be OK? Exposed and unlocked?
 
Jens Schuetz said:
When I click on the link it only shows me the picture. Well phone browsers are different sometimes. Sorry.
Why would want to carry any bayonet at all? Thing is you could open carry it in Ca. Only concealed would not be allowed unless it's folded.
Is half folded over the blade enough or not would be the question.
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Yeah, but why would you want to? There are much better knives designed for utility and much better knives designed for self defense.
 
Jens Schuetz said:
That's surprisingly smart. All thumps up.
Exposed And Locked however still leaves room. If the handle could swing around freely and wouldn't be locked it would be OK? Exposed and unlocked?
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I'm pretty sure a responding officer searching you isn't going to buy that argument, and you'd have to fight it out in court. For one, a cop searching you means you are reasonably suspected of having committed a crime unrelated to the knife, and they probably aren't going to think too favorably of someone that not only is already a suspect, but is trying to weasel out of it on a very slim technicality.

However, this type of knife is designed for a belt sheath, which is perfectly legal to do openly. Trying to cram this in your pocket sounds dangerous.
 
Jens Schuetz said:
For sure not. It's too risky and not what I would carry. Just a purely academic discussion.
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Gotcha--but it's a question I put to myself all the time. I have a little Busse Game Warden that I would love to carry in my pocket rather than a folder... but I just don't want to deal with the fall out if I were ever stopped with it. In any case, I'm familiar with the knife you are asking about--pretty cool collector's piece
 
glistam said:
I'm pretty sure a responding officer searching you isn't going to buy that argument, and you'd have to fight it out in court. For one, a cop searching you means you are reasonably suspected of having committed a crime unrelated to the knife, and they probably aren't going to think too favorably of someone that not only is already a suspect, but is trying to weasel out of it on a very slim technicality.

However, this type of knife is designed for a belt sheath, which is perfectly legal to do openly. Trying to cram this in your pocket sounds dangerous.
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True.

Who would expect the local Leo to know all the details of all the laws? That isn't really his job. So weaseling out doesn't seem very likely.

If you are suspected of something else and they figure out it was wrong you would still get a charge for carrying something concealed you shouldn't have and the court would have to figure out how the law will have to be interpreted in that case.
Thus it would be still an interesting legal discussion in my opinion.


Exposed blades in pockets are indeed a bad idea[emoji2] I also don't think most people would have pockets that deep.


Something a bit different:
Didn't recently a guy get convicted for carrying an open SAK in his pocket? And they deemed it a concealed fixed blade? I can see how it was exposed but surely it couldnt have been locked if it was a regular model?
 
Aias said:
Gotcha--but it's a question I put to myself all the time. I have a little Busse Game Warden that I would love to carry in my pocket rather than a folder... but I just don't want to deal with the fall out if I were ever stopped with it. In any case, I'm familiar with the knife you are asking about--pretty cool collector's piece
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I see. Just came back from a few countries where fixed are allowed but not one handed and / or assisted folders. Kind of like opposite day.
I actually liked having a tiny fixed blade in my pocket. Food processing was much easier when not having to worry about mango juice running into some pivot. No worries about lock strength when ramming holes into coconuts.
Now back in California I miss the fixed ones and open carrying them might be legal but feels a bit weird.

Technically I guess one could take a fixed full tang knife where the scales could be modded to move over the blade.
When you want to use it fold the scales down and lock them somehow. Kind of like a svord peasant but with a full tang.
Thus you have a fixed knife but it's blade is legal to carry concealed because its not exposed and it's handle is folded.
 
Jens Schuetz said:
Didn't recently a guy get convicted for carrying an open SAK in his pocket? And they deemed it a concealed fixed blade? I can see how it was exposed but surely it couldnt have been locked if it was a regular model?
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Didn't hear about that. I'd need to know more about the case because often there's more to the story. Anyone have more details? I have ways of getting court records but I'd need to know what I'm actually looking for.
 
glistam said:
Didn't hear about that. I'd need to know more about the case because often there's more to the story. Anyone have more details? I have ways of getting court records but I'd need to know what I'm actually looking for.
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That would be nice.
http://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/california-court-decide-swiss-army-knives-illegal/
From the blog it seems they tried to argue that it was only exposed but not exposed and locked.

Not saying the guy didn't deserve it or he should have carried an open folder in his pocket. Just curious of why exposed and locked shouldn't apply here.
 
Interesting. State of California v. Emmanuel Castillolopez. It appears that they are arguing over what constitutes the definition of "locked." The state is arguing that slipjoints technically "lock" open via the backspring. As opposed to a real locking mechanism that has to be disengaged in some what for the blade to close. While convicted in a lower court, the conviction was overturned on appeal. If the Supreme Court of CA does actually decide to hear this case, my bet is they would agree with the Appellate court.

Of course this case also bolsters my earlier remarks about not angering the cops in the first place. Castillolopez was a prior convicted felon, the driver of his car eluded the police and had to be stopped forcibly, and Castillolopez was deliberately obstructive when ordered out of the vehicle at gunpoint. He was clearly up to something and this was the only charge they could make stick.
 
Critter said:
http://www.kniferights.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=331&Itemid=1
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Although I usually appreciate the efforts of Kniferights, I think they missed the mark here.

The defendant was not arrested for carrying or possessing a swiss army knife, he was arrested for allegedly carrying a folding knife CONCEALED with the BLADE OPEN. "CONCEALED", and "with the BLADE OPEN" are two very specific and important details, and the basis for his charge and initial conviction.

There is nothing illegal about possessing or carrying a swiss army knife in the state of California, either openly or concealed, and the outcome of this case will not change that. The right to possess and carry swiss army knives, or similar knives, is not in jeopardy as a result of this case.

What is illegal under CA state law is carrying a folding knife of any type CONCEALED with the BLADE OPEN. No one is saying that swiss army knives, or similar knives, are dangerous weapons and should be illegal. Only that carrying a CONCEALED folding knife with the BLADE OPEN should be illegal.

I really don't see how this is an issue that should take up the time and resources of Kniferights. Although I like seeing the knife rights of American citizens being expanded, I don't really see any need for the right to carry a folding knife concealed with the blade open. Who in their right mind would want to walk around with an open folder in their pocket?

In that regard, I find the details of the case to be highly suspect. The idea that the defendant was riding around in a car with an open folding knife in his pocket strains credibility to the point of absurdity. I can't help but think that the arresting officer found the knife on the defendant, and simply made up the story about it being open in order to justify a charge.

As far as this being a matter worthy of the effort of Kniferights, it strikes me as a complete non-issue. When it comes to California's knife laws, I'd rather see the prohibitions on switchblades 2" or longer repealed. Or see the prohibitions on carrying a concealed fixed-blade repealed. But like I said, who really wants the right to walk around with an open folder in their pocket?

Still, I applaud Kniferights in their other efforts throughout the country. Keep up the good work. :thumbup:
 
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Because if there doesn't NEED to be a law against it then there shouldn't be one.
 
killgar said:
Although I usually appreciate the efforts of Kniferights, I think they missed the mark here.

The defendant was not arrested for carrying or possessing a swiss army knife, he was arrested for allegedly carrying a folding knife CONCEALED with the BLADE OPEN. "CONCEALED", and "with the BLADE OPEN" are two very specific and important details, and the basis for his charge and initial conviction.

There is nothing illegal about possessing or carrying a swiss army knife in the state of California, either openly or concealed, and the outcome of this case will not change that. The right to possess and carry swiss army knives, or similar knives, is not in jeopardy as a result of this case.

What is illegal under CA state law is carrying a folding knife of any type CONCEALED with the BLADE OPEN. No one is saying that swiss army knives, or similar knives, are dangerous weapons and should be illegal. Only that carrying a CONCEALED folding knife with the BLADE OPEN should be illegal.

I really don't see how this is an issue that should take up the time and resources of Kniferights. Although I like seeing the knife rights of American citizens being expanded, I don't really see any need for the right to carry a folding knife concealed with the blade open. Who in their right mind would want to walk around with an open folder in their pocket?

In that regard, I find the details of the case to be highly suspect. The idea that the defendant was riding around in a car with an open folding knife in his pocket strains credibility to the point of absurdity. I can't help but think that the arresting officer found the knife on the defendant, and simply made up the story about it being open in order to justify a charge.

As far as this being a matter worthy of the effort of Kniferights, it strikes me as a complete non-issue. When it comes to California's knife laws, I'd rather see the prohibitions on switchblades 2" or longer repealed. Or see the prohibitions on carrying a concealed fixed-blade repealed. But like I said, who really wants the right to walk around with an open folder in their pocket?

Still, I applaud Kniferights in their other efforts throughout the country. Keep up the good work. [emoji106]
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You could come up with a reason to carry an open folder.
You could draw it as fast as a fixed knife and against the poking through the pocket into the leg or other parts one could use a sheath. Now you have a faster knife for self defense(?) or your electrician job and you could conceal it legally which you wouldn't be allowed with a fixed one.
Still locked and exposed is not allowed so only open slip joints would be legal. Self defense or maybe even attacking [emoji15] with slip joints? Hard to believe. Maybe he really needs a fast drawable Swiss army knife for his job only but doesn't want to scare other people and thus it's nice to be allowed to conceal it?

I doubt a leo would risk possibly getting caught just to frame the guy for some little knife charge.
Maybe the defendant had that knife open and got nervous and tried to hide it fast in his pocket. Seriously. No way he walked with an open blade very far in his pocket without anything happening. Or maybe he had a sheath for it and does it all the time?
 
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