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Apologies for the drama. It was not my intention to start a discussion. I will see about recreating this thread again in the future under different wording and sentencing if I ever get around to it.
I will be more careful in my wording, and sharing of opinions from now on.

Just one thing I wanted to be clear: I never said ZT doesn't do a good job and I mentioned carbidizing WHEN a person complains about a sticky or overly stiff lockbar.
Lastly, a single knife cannot be used as a baseline of any sorts.

Thanks ZT for providing us with the 560/1.
 
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Wait! So you're *not* supposed to lubricate the bearings? I'm currently using a gun lube called EWG (Extreme Weapons Grease), made by Slip 2000. I'm using it on all my knives around the pivot. So I should remove this after a couple of weeks and just use it bare?

Looks like I'm going to be sending mine to ZT for the carbonizing, so perhaps they can strengthen the detente at the same time. I find it very difficult to use the flipper to open the knife because the detente is very weak. Serial number 3513.
 
Your 056x should be carbidized from the factory. My 0561 (Ser. 1999) was carbidized when I got it. You don't need to lube the bearings either. I lubed mine when I first got it and it got crazy rough. Just leave them bare. If you got some water in you pivot you should probably oil the bearings and wipe any excess off just to prevent rust from forming.
 
Your 056x should be carbidized from the factory. My 0561 (Ser. 1999) was carbidized when I got it. You don't need to lube the bearings either. I lubed mine when I first got it and it got crazy rough. Just leave them bare. If you got some water in you pivot you should probably oil the bearings and wipe any excess off just to prevent rust from forming.

This seems pretty counterintuitive. Lubrication is supposed to prevent wear, not cause it?
 
I appreciate your intention and effort, but I have some issue with your information.


People recommind using a sharpie or pencil trick however these are only to allow the lockbar to wear to the tang and does nothing to prevent future long term wear.

Nothing? Then how comes it that there are reports of people who have used that remedy and then the lock bar wears in?

Now from factory the ZT 560/1's are carbidized but not well done (at least mine is, with a 3,000 serial number). For a better and more permanent solution: Send the knife in, ZT will recarbidize the lockbar properly. This will give you a long term resolution to the stick lockbar.

Curious...they don't do it well from the factory, but from the factory after sending it in they do it fine? What about all of the knives that people haven't complained about? If they're doing it poorly, then wouldn't there be a much stronger presence of complaint? You want everyone to send in their knives to be recarbidized?

Here's some pictures of what carbidizing looks like after sending it in to ZT for repair.
IMG_0506.jpg

I mention all of this because you'll notice the corner of the lock bar where it actually engages the blade. That's worn, and is practically down to bare titanium. It likely won't stick because...it's worn. That'll happen whether it's recarbidized or not, as is demonstrated by all three of my 0560s and those of others.



Flippers require a very precise amount of force needed for the blade to flip out. A weak detent means the flipper will not work properly, and too strong of a detent will be problematic.

Not really. There's plenty of variation in detent strength across many different knives, especially the Skyline. It's arguably Kershaw's most successful flipper design, and "very precise amount of force" doesn't really describe the many, many of those I've experienced. The detent is important, but a weaker detent doesn't necessarily mean it don't work. If the blade isn't being held closed properly, then of course there will be deployment issues, however it's not something that takes an amazing amount of precision.

Generally speaking high end knife makers go through great lengths to set the detent ball unto the blade tang.

You're absolutely right. Drilling a hole in the proper place is a very great length. Also, "unto" isn't the right word. "Into" would have been better.


As you may know, as you open and close the knife the detent ball will scratch and almost carve in a path unto the blade surface.

Scratch and carve? Not really. More like polish a line. The blade material is harder than that of the ball, so the ball isn't going to be doing a whole lot of scratching and carving. It's more likely to wear a flat spot itself.

The lubricant hastens the wear on a ball bearing system that will impact the KVT pivot system as well as the ball bearing, so it is not wise to use it permanently.

^How exactly?
 
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Okay.

1. Liquid lubricant on a ball bearing system increases wear, it's the same principal as a the coolant/lubricant liquid used in milling operations. Reduce friction maximize contact, increase the speed of the wear. Something like a dry lube shouldn't affect it however since it works by applying a layer on top of the surface which does not move. It isn't much of a difference but does wear in faster. This is from personal and anecdotal experience.

2. Sharpie trick works, but once again it doesn't STOP the lockbar from wearing. Remember the lockbar is NOT hardened it is carbidized. If the carbidizing is worn off, or not present you will have a rapidly wearing lockbar. The wearing of the lockbar can result in a sticky lock forming again.

3. On my ZT561 the carbidizing was only done half way, and wore out very quickly, almost as if it was scraping off. When I got it back from repair most if the lockbar was carbidized, and has yet to show any signs of wear on the carbidizing. Their repair and production departments are likely separate, so using our imagination while production may only get for example 2 minutes to carbidize/assemble the knife the repair department may spend 5 minutes or more. I am thinking that's why the carbidizing wasn't done properly on my ZT561. Production has quotas, Repair centers often have more leniency.

4. Detents, and flippers are a rather difficult subject to get into. Again, the point is it appears that production knives tend to use the lockbar tension to affect the detent strength as a cost saving measure instead of mating each detent ball to a perfectly drilled detent hole. Best left for a knifemaker to discuss. What I have heard twice from two different high end knifemakers is that there's a sweet spot, one said in tolerance of around .3mm~ for a "nice feeling" flipper action.

5. I am unsure if I can call the scratches a polish. Under the microscope compared to the Sebenza's ceramic ball, the ZT 561 looks more like scratching, and carving than polishing. The sebenza's seem more of a near mirror finish.
 
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Well, I'm not an engineer but it seems to me that if you decrease friction it doesn't matter whether you increase contact. Non-contact there's zero friction. If lubrication increases wear then I wasted a lot of time packing bearings before they started sealing them, and there's a whole lubrication industry that's going to be pretty disappointed. As an example, when you use a cutting bit you may use some lube to increase contact without wearing out the bit. So, in a sense, it's wearing faster than not using the bit at all because it's too dull to cut. What'd I just say??

I know that I've used the sharpie trick once and once it wore off I still had a sticky lock bar, so had to do it again. What do they do when the locking surface wears out? Can they install a steel insert? How can you tell how much has been carbidized? How can I tell that it needs to be serviced repaired at the factory?
 
Need to do more research on the subject at hand.

Sorry for the drama.
 
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Well, I'm not an engineer but it seems to me that if you decrease friction it doesn't matter whether you increase contact. Non-contact there's zero friction. If lubrication increases wear then I wasted a lot of time packing bearings before they started sealing them, and there's a whole lubrication industry that's going to be pretty disappointed. As an example, when you use a cutting bit you may use some lube to increase contact without wearing out the bit. So, in a sense, it's wearing faster than not using the bit at all because it's too dull to cut. What'd I just say??

I know that I've used the sharpie trick once and once it wore off I still had a sticky lock bar, so had to do it again. What do they do when the locking surface wears out? Can they install a steel insert? How can you tell how much has been carbidized? How can I tell that it needs to be serviced repaired at the factory?

I wasn't trying to say the lube wore out the bearings or anything. I think it just got in the way of the detent ball which is weird because I've never had that happen with any other knives but it might have been because the knife wasn't worn in yet, I could probably lube up the inside of the knife now and it would be fine because it's broken in.

You can tell what has been carbidized by the way it looks on the lock face. You can see it in the pic showing the lockbar. the light area that looks sot of "gritty" is the part that's carbidized. The darker area is Bare Ti. I hope that makes sense. It probably doesn't though:)
 
Hmmmm... Haven't had a problem with my earlier 0561. Never stuck, never lock rocked, broke in smooth and sweet. Lock face looks peachy too.
 
Luis,

I need to address some of your comments here.

1. Sticky lock bars - All of our titanium handled framelocks are carbidized at the factory. Your specific knife may not have been carbidized to your specific liking, but since you have not handled thousands of these knives, you have no authority to say that they are all "not well done". Please stop suggesting that every person who owns an 0560 needs to send it in immediately for re-carbidizing. Anyone who has a problem with their knife is welcome to send it in for adjustment, but since you do not handle every 0560 that leaves our factory, it is not your job to tell people that their brand new knife is defective and needs immediate repair. Carbidizing helps, but sometimes locks do stick. A little pencil lead or sharpie will generally ease the stickiness until the knife breaks in.

2. Our assemblers spend a significant amount of time on each knife carbizing, checking for stickiness, checking lockup, adjusting detent, checking again. There will always be some variation from knife to knife, and we cannot guarantee that the detent on every knife will feel exactly the same. Keep in mind that these knives are precision machined, but built by hand. As I have said numerous times before, we had to make a decision when we first designed this knife - do we make it work better as a thumbstud opener, or better as a flipper? We opted to make it with a stronger detent to make it a better flipper. Some of these knives will be very difficult to open with the thumbstud/stop pin. That is the nature of this knife and the stronger detent of a bearing assisted flipper. We also do not encourage end users to take the knife apart and adjust their own detent - we have trained, professional knife assemblers and warranty staff that are happy to do that for you.

3. A little grease goes a long way, but should not be necessary with ball bearing washers. However, it will not harm the washers, and even if it did, they are an easily replaced component. Considering that the blade is made of hardened Elmax, the 410 SS detent ball is unlikely to "carve a path" in the blade. It does polish the surface some over time. A tiny drop of oil or grease in the detent hole will help if the detent ball ever starts squeaking. This is not a large scale issue, but I have seen it from time to time on knives from many manufacturers.


Let's all remember that our experiences are often limited to our own knives before we make large sweeping judgements of a product line. I work for Kershaw/ZT, but if I received a knife from another manufacturer that I was not pleased with, I could not assume that their whole line is problematic based on my one sample.

- Jim
 
Louis G., you seem to be extremely mistaken in regards to a few things, especially lubricants. Most of what you said just doesn't make any sense.


Okay.

1. Liquid lubricant on a ball bearing system increases wear, it's the same principal as a the coolant/lubricant liquid used in milling operations. Reduce friction maximize contact, increase the speed of the wear. Something like a dry lube shouldn't affect it however since it works by applying a layer on top of the surface which does not move. It isn't much of a difference but does wear in faster. This is from personal and anecdotal experience.

2. Sharpie trick works, but once again it doesn't STOP the lockbar from wearing. Remember the lockbar is NOT hardened it is carbidized. If the carbidizing is worn off, or not present you will have a rapidly wearing lockbar. The wearing of the lockbar can result in a sticky lock forming again.

3. On my ZT561 the carbidizing was only done half way, and wore out very quickly, almost as if it was scraping off. When I got it back from repair most if the lockbar was carbidized, and has yet to show any signs of wear on the carbidizing. Their repair and production departments are likely separate, so using our imagination while production may only get for example 2 minutes to carbidize/assemble the knife the repair department may spend 5 minutes or more. I am thinking that's why the carbidizing wasn't done properly on my ZT561. Production has quotas, Repair centers often have more leniency.

4. Detents, and flippers are a rather difficult subject to get into. Again, the point is it appears that production knives tend to use the lockbar tension to affect the detent strength as a cost saving measure instead of mating each detent ball to a perfectly drilled detent hole. Best left for a knifemaker to discuss. What I have heard twice from two different high end knifemakers is that there's a sweet spot, one said in tolerance of around .3mm~ for a "nice feeling" flipper action.

5. I am unsure if I can call the scratches a polish. Under the microscope compared to the Sebenza's ceramic ball, the ZT 561 looks more like scratching, and carving than polishing. The sebenza's seem more of a near mirror finish.

1) Lubricant on a ball bearing system does not increase wear. That's just false. It's indeed the same as cutting oil. Cutting oils aren't "coolants". Coolants are liquids that transport heat from one source and bring it to a cooler. Cutting oils lubricate the cutting tool (bit, mill, whatever) in order to reduce the heat caused by friction. It lubricates, and prevents whatever heat creation it can. It doesn't cool like an actual coolant does. My questions was "How exactly". You didn't answer it, you made a very false analogy.

2) Neither does carbidizing. The layer will wear off, and the lock bar will wear in more. It's going to happen. The carbidizing on the lock bar of my 2 0560s has worn off, and I have no stick or any issues. It's settled in, worn in, whatever you call it.

3) Again, I doubt that's the case, and I'd like to hear from ZT about it rather than take your speculation as truth, and I urge others to do the same.

4) Mating the ball perfectly? There's a relatively small amount of the circular edge of the hole that the ball actually touches. Unless it's exactly fit, then I don't see how some mating process will really dial in any sort of detent strength. The position of the hole will, as that will determine how deeply the ball sits when the knife is closed, and the tension of the bar will determine what upward force has to be applied to the ball to get it to release.

5) Under a microscope, a lot of polishes look like scratches. Under a more powerful microscope, the knife itself is mostly empty space. Just looking at it however, shows that the ball makes its path on the tang into a shiny little line. I call that polish, you can call it toast. Doesn't change that there's no "carving" going on.

Cheers.
 
Okay.

1. Liquid lubricant on a ball bearing system increases wear, it's the same principal as a the coolant/lubricant liquid used in milling operations. Reduce friction maximize contact, increase the speed of the wear. Something like a dry lube shouldn't affect it however since it works by applying a layer on top of the surface which does not move. It isn't much of a difference but does wear in faster. This is from personal and anecdotal experience.

2. Sharpie trick works, but once again it doesn't STOP the lockbar from wearing. Remember the lockbar is NOT hardened it is carbidized. If the carbidizing is worn off, or not present you will have a rapidly wearing lockbar. The wearing of the lockbar can result in a sticky lock forming again.

3. On my ZT561 the carbidizing was only done half way, and wore out very quickly, almost as if it was scraping off. When I got it back from repair most if the lockbar was carbidized, and has yet to show any signs of wear on the carbidizing. Their repair and production departments are likely separate, so using our imagination while production may only get for example 2 minutes to carbidize/assemble the knife the repair department may spend 5 minutes or more. I am thinking that's why the carbidizing wasn't done properly on my ZT561. Production has quotas, Repair centers often have more leniency.

4. Detents, and flippers are a rather difficult subject to get into. Again, the point is it appears that production knives tend to use the lockbar tension to affect the detent strength as a cost saving measure instead of mating each detent ball to a perfectly drilled detent hole. Best left for a knifemaker to discuss. What I have heard twice from two different high end knifemakers is that there's a sweet spot, one said in tolerance of around .3mm~ for a "nice feeling" flipper action.

5. I am unsure if I can call the scratches a polish. Under the microscope compared to the Sebenza's ceramic ball, the ZT 561 looks more like scratching, and carving than polishing. The sebenza's seem more of a near mirror finish.

#1 doesn't sound right to me, so you are saying the cooling/lubricating fluid causes wear? so it doesn't cool and lubricate?
#2....so how did knives work before anybody carbidized the lock faces?
#4 I'm thinking the knifemaker you talked to was commenting specifically on his own design of flipper. Numbers will change with dimensions. Also what tolerance was he talking about? From what to what?
#5....I am unsure if I can even understand what you are getting at here. Nobody has mentioned a problem with the detent wearing through the blade, so not sure what the point is, but feel free to call it what you want.

Looks like S2D beat me to it......
 
Yep, tells me to be classy then deletes his posts. Mhmmm. Oh well, I'm out. *poof*

I am willing to admit when I am wrong and correct my statements. However petty details where being argued, that's not why I created the thread. If that was my intention I would have happily created it in W&C and probably been roasted alive.

I will likely reopen the thread once I work on the wording and change the over all direction of the thread to be more generalized and less specific of my opinions. Hopefully it will be a different thread then.
 
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