coffee etch and phosphoric acid???

DanGraves

Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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Mar 5, 2006
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So a friend told me that the stuff in coffee that made the oxides permanent was phosphoric acid. So I bought some mixed it 50/50 and man did it etch but made it gray. Anyone know anything about this and how you use it to retain the black etc.? Thanks.
 
Good morning, Dan. I won't speak to the details of exactly what's going on (whether the acidity of coffee is actually etching, or if the coffee is more of a stain, which is what I believe), but I have been using the same 1/2 gallon of strong, cheap, instant coffee on my damascus blades for the past 4+ years, and here's my process based on my experience.
First I do my normal ferric chloride etch (three 30 minute cycles, cleaning off the oxides with 0000 steel wool after the 1st and 2nd cycles) to bring out some topography of the pattern. After the 3rd, I neutralize the blade in boiling water with baking soda in it. I then take the blade out and let it air dry, usually overnight. (I'm not sure it's necessary to let it sit that long, but I seem to have better outcomes when letting it sit longer than shorter.) Then I use 5000 grit wet/dry sandpaper wrapped TIGHTLY around a sanding stick and polish the black oxides off the high spots (the nickel steel that resists the etching from the ferric chloride). If everything looks good, I'll leave it there. But I've found that sometimes (usually on lower layer patterns or san-mai blades) it's hard to avoid cleaning the oxides off the 1080, and then I'll finish up with a coffee "etch" or dunk (here's where the science turns to art....you'll have to play around with what's enough and what's too much). I start with an hour, then do more if necessary. I usually have to clean off the nickle steel with the 5000 grit paper a little because the coffee tends to "stain" this too.
IMO, the coffee is good because you can re-do this many times whereas if one used ferric chloride, the plain carbon steels would be etched away ruining the blade.
I hope this makes sense. If not, feel free to ask.
 
Thank you WEO (Billyo) I have also been using the coffee as you do but what I am trying yo find out is what and how to use phosphoric acid (which is what I understand is in coffee) and achieve good result where the Damascus is good and black and the 15n20 is not affected..
 
Sorry 'bout that, Dan. I didn't realize the question was specifically about the phosphoric acid... I'm curious too, now.
 
I think I found some info that stated "The easiest method of a deep, enduring black is to use a rust brown like plum brown in several (hot) applications, rubbing down with 0000 between applications. Makes a deep black that holds up as well as any hot blue." What I think is done is then to etch in the Parkerizing solution which is phosphoric acid. But I am not sure how this is done. The entire phrase "Parkerizing works. So does hot bluing. No treatment will stand up to being treated like a splitting wedge through logs. The easiest method of a deep, enduring black is to use a rust brown like plum brown in several (hot) applications, rubbing down with 0000 between applications. Makes a deep black that holds up as well as any hot blue.
Hope someone can explain this. I think there has to be a better way than coffee to make the oxides black and more durable.
 
I have no knowledge to share, but do find this very interesting. With use I've always expect the black oxide to wear off a kitchen knife. If there turns out a better way, I'm all ears {g}
 
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